Django Chat

What is Django?

Episode Summary

Django is a web framework but what does that actually mean? We discuss why web frameworks exist and what makes Django special.

Episode Notes

SHAMELESS PLUGS

Episode Transcription

Will Vincent  0:06  

Hello, welcome to a new episode of Django chat. Today we're going to talk about what is Django. I'm Will Vincent, I'm joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello. And this is a episode that we've wanted to do for a long time because we both work with Django, professionally, but also in a teaching capacity where we're dealing with people who are new to programming or new to web development, or just new to Django. There's a lot of different ways to explain what Django actually is. So we're going to dive into that today. So Carlton, when someone asks you, what is Django? What do you say? Oh,

 

Carlton Gibson  0:40  

right. Good question. Right. So Django is what the web framework, right? So what's a web framework? What's a web request? What's the web the web is your browser is talking to you typing a URL, it sends off a request to a server, that server compiles the response in the form of an HTML page and sends it back to you. That's the funnel. No manual task, there are various bits of that which are the same every single time. And so you don't want to you don't want to build those from scratch every single time. So a web framework is a tool, which gives you the basic building blocks, enabling you, enabling you to build your web application that serves those responses. So there's a view layered template there, there's no RM, these are bits of the Django, the Django that you wouldn't you don't want to create from scratch.

 

Will Vincent  1:28  

Right? That is a super, yeah, cuz it's, well, I was gonna say boring. It's not boring, but it's the same every site has, you know, 90% of the functionality is the same. It needs to talk to a database, it needs to handle requests, you know, so load this page. And because it's so much of it is the same. It makes sense that web frameworks emerge. Basically, there's one or two big ones for every programming language. So Ruby has Ruby on Rails, JavaScript has Express, PHP has Laravel. Python has flask and Django and I think Within that there's different philosophies of how you build a web framework. But yeah, it's a I mean, I usually describe it as it's a set of tools to make it faster. So you can focus on what's different about a website. Not what's the same.

 

Carlton Gibson  2:11  

Yeah, perfect. I mean, you know, the tagline is the web framework for perfectionist with a deadline. So the idea is you want to do it right. You've got to do it quickly.

 

Will Vincent  2:18  

Right? Yeah. And yeah, and I think that the challenge of this question is, you know, I always ask someone, you know, where are you at? Like, what level are you on? So if I explain to my mom what a web framework is, my mom is not technical. I just say, yeah, it's a tool that makes it easier to build websites. And that's kind of as much as she wants to know. Right? And then if it's somebody learning, programming, it's like, well, you know, let's talk about what a website is, which as you said, you know, you need to learn about HTTP where you do request and response. So you load a page each time and you can kind of break down the functionality and, and you want, you know, there's a lot of things you can get wrong, a lot of security things and so it makes sense to have a community of millions of People over, you know, in tangos case, what is it? 14 years? You know, something like that. Yeah, too. You know, it's not the kind of work you want to do on your own. And, and I always think of it as nobody cares what web framework you use.

 

Carlton Gibson  3:14  

No, I mean, engineers, they do care if your site's insecure, or they do care if it's Yeah, because, you know, don't know.

 

Will Vincent  3:20  

Exactly. So it's purely, you know, sort of a tool for us developers, but a tool that's awesome and important. And you'd be, you know, as a learning exercise, if it would be interesting to build your own web framework, but you would quickly, I think, appreciate why. It's sort of crazy that anyone starts one

 

Carlton Gibson  3:38  

disease these days, like kind of in the early 2000s. Everybody wrote their own web framework. They, you know, they picked up Perl, they wrote their web framework and barely picked up PHP, they wrote their own web, and you had all these homebrew web frameworks around and yeah, they since you know, the community ones that rose from that kind of Armageddon of homebrew frameworks

 

Will Vincent  4:00  

Write? Well, it's a little bit like the curse of the engineer where you, you know, I love the example of ometer Oh, I should blog. Okay. Let me write a blog sit down and stare at the blank page. Oh, yeah, you know, I should write, I should use a static site generator, you know, let me go check out Jekyll or Gatsby, and then look at, you know, it's not quite what I want. I'm just gonna build my own. But you know, sort of like you're not an engineer unless you've gone ahead and build your own. And then, you know, weeks later, you still haven't written that blog post. And you're like, Ah, this is kind of actually harder than I thought maybe I'll just use

 

Carlton Gibson  4:31  

it in a way it's easier to write a static site generator than it is to read the docs of a static site generator.

 

Will Vincent  4:37  

Yeah, it works. Yes, true. Right. So So what is alright, so Django. Django is a web framework. It's a set of tools to automate what you use to build a website. There are a lot of you know, I always say, you know, again, as I mentioned, I start with so there's programming languages. That's the base layer. There's a couple popular ones, Python, Ruby, JavaScript, PHP, would be the big ones. And then within that there's one or two web frameworks. So you sort of have to go up the ladder. In terms of choosing your tools. You know, I think a big within the web frameworks, there's sort of, if you can make a distinction, there's micro frameworks like flask, where you have lots of you know, it's like a manual car. Or you have ones like Django, which are full bodied batteries included, it's more like an automatic. So do you lose a little bit of control? Yes, but you don't you know if that's not even if it's more, you know, David Hannah Meyer Hanson of Ruby on Rails described it as the difference between a bag of Legos you dump on the floor, that's a micro framework and a truck that just works, you know, so we'll do we'll probably do a separate episode on that. But we, you know, there's choices one has to make and as the, you know, working with a web framework that web frameworks architects made choices around you know, how much control they give you but also how much you know, rope for you to hang yourself with.

 

Carlton Gibson  6:00  

Yeah, and I think the bigger example here is in the JavaScript community in the Node JS community where they use these really small micro components, and then they have to bolt them together. And there's an art in knowing which the packages are and how, which one relies on which and which works well together and which are maintained. And putting together your package, which then you've got maximum control, but there's quite a lot of work in that. And with the bat, Django and rails in particular, they go for the batteries included approach that they provide you, not everything you need, but the all the main components all in one, you install Django, you know that most of what you need is there, and then you might reach out to the third party packages in the community for those few bits that aren't.

 

Will Vincent  6:42  

Right, whereas with a micro framework from the beginning, you're gonna have to install half dozen dozen third party packages just for you know, a basic blog site. Yeah, you know, because it's just not included. So.

 

Carlton Gibson  6:56  

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, depending on your application. But, you know,

 

Will Vincent  7:02  

I mean, we're clearly biased, but many people are biased as we are. And I mean, it really it depends on what you need. It depends on the context, my personal

 

Carlton Gibson  7:10  

experience, you know, I've used all of these frameworks over the years. And my personal experience is that I'm much more productive with Django, simply because it's all there. And I don't have to go search at this time cent looking for other packages, it's not time well spent, I can be running my application. And right for me, I can get right down to the view layer, and I know it well. So there are, it's not like I have more freedom with a micro framework.

 

Will Vincent  7:38  

It right you can you can dive. You can change things in Django, if you want to. But you don't have to.

 

Carlton Gibson  7:44  

Yeah, exactly. So for me, I'm much more efficient doing it that way. You know, flask might be a little bit more lightweight or whatever. But I have to go and look at the docs and try and remember what the interface is. Whereas with Django, I know that I recognize it. And so it's much quicker for me to produce something in Django than it is in pay another framework.

 

Will Vincent  8:01  

Yeah. And there's a link in the notes. There's a fantastic Python talk from 2017 by Jacob Kaplan moss called let's build a web framework where he goes through basically the ingredients and the choices that you have to make in a web framework. And, you know, if he were, yeah, so that's three hours long, but worth looking at. You really want to think about these things. And it helps you know, it helps you appreciation helps you understand the choices Django makes, because not every choice is perfect, but most of them are good. And the ones that aren't perfect. can be worked on. So yeah, so let's, let's move on. So why, yeah, I think we've covered the next thing. You know, why would you recommend Django to someone? I mean, usually the argument, someone says, I want to build a website. And usually I, I try to ask, Well, you know, what exactly do you want? If you're, you know, Django is a good choice for many people because it's built with Python, which if you're learning programming these Python and JavaScript are the two most popular languages. Python probably more in the academic context, if you have a CS degree more and more of that education is in Python in the business context as well. Yes, the whole data

 

Carlton Gibson  9:12  

science and data analysis and Jupiter notebooks and I know that you can use JavaScript in Jupiter notebooks, but it's Python based and the whole pandas project and all of that. Python is very practical in the real world.

 

Will Vincent  9:28  

Right? Yeah, I mean, it's,

 

Carlton Gibson  9:30  

and then Django was probably the go to web framework in that environment. I know there's flask as well. But for the people in the real economy to reach for Django is a much more sensible choice, I think, and to reach for flask because they don't exactly as we were just talking about, they don't know the ins and outs of the might of the flask

 

Will Vincent  9:49  

ecosystem. And I think, you know, when you start out the hello world with flask is simpler than Django. So I think it's sometimes I see people think that flask is better for beginners. But often, I would argue that you know, once you do anything more than hello world, Django has got your back. And most of the people I see using flask are quite advanced developers with very specific use cases. Exactly. Especially around microservices. So in some ways, I think, you know, flask is it sort of either end of the spectrum, and Django is more in the middle. And again, you know, you should learn both, but Django is a great choice, someone who wants to learn web development, but part of part of the challenge. And I've I talked a lot of people about this is just the first time you learn web development, there's so much to learn. And Django and rails sort of have a degree of magic in that they solve things for you. And so you sort of back your way into learning how this all works. But I you know, I personally think that's the way to do it. There's no sense in reading 1000 page manual before you start a website, like build something and then iterate on it when you want to customize it. That's a good chance to learn more about you know, what is the view layer? How do templates really work? You know, routing. I personally I like the ability to just get something done and then backfill rather than have to spend huge amounts of time upfront. Yeah, I mean, I think people aren't.

 

Carlton Gibson  11:15  

Most learners aren't in a position where they want to learn everything from the first principles and then build up, they want to get something functional up and running and play with it, and then tweak it and learn. So the great thing would like the Django tutorials or whatever is you can, you can get a blog site up and running, which you've built. And it's a functioning blog site. It's great. You've got forms in it, you can edit and you can, you know, users can filter by tags, and all these great stuff and you haven't really understood all of it. But you've got this this functional thing that works and it's yours and you built it, and then you can grow it and play with it and learn more.

 

Will Vincent  11:51  

Yeah, yeah. So in the same way that Yeah, Python is, you know, a good beginner language choice but also used at the highest levels. Django as well, kind of can span span that spectrum for you. So what else should we say? I mean, there's so much you know that we have an entire podcast on Django. So there's so many areas we could dive into about, you know, what Django does databases, views, URLs templates? I mean, I guess another, you know, in terms of, you know, what is Django? Why is Django special? You know, it was built from the beginning with this, you know, for perfectionist on deadline, the idea of you should be able to work quickly on things, you know, and part of that is some of the maybe extra features that not every web framework has is,

 

Carlton Gibson  12:34  

so the admin is yet one. So this is right, the admin so it was built for a newspaper company, right. And they had two or three publications, and they had the development team who were building the web, the online publications, but they had the content authors who needed to be able to come in and write newspaper articles and enter them into the database. And so the Django admin was born in this environment and what that gives you is an instant admin interface on top to define some models, which are part of the ORM, which we haven't really talked about. But on top of that, the admin just then creates this whole interface, which enables you to edit add, you know, there's got permissions involved with it. It's, it's super fun to get that out of the box. But essentially zero effort is one of jangles key features. I think it's one of the thing Yeah, strictly it's been the drawing point

 

Will Vincent  13:25  

is quite special. And I think, you know, at all levels to have a graphical interface way to interact with the guts is, is very powerful you so you can also go into the Django shell. So that's like a command line view, which some people prefer. But you know, even for me, I mean, sometimes it's nice to just see my stuff instead of having to live in the command line and certainly for beginners. You know, when I teach total beginners I don't drop into the Django shell at all that you know, there is this admin there. So once you set up your basic things, you can go in and, you know, add blog posts, you can add comments, you know, you can add Users, you can do this in a very visual way that I think is, you know, great for teaching.

 

Carlton Gibson  14:05  

Yeah. And as well, like, it doesn't matter how advanced you are, it's almost I can't think of a single case where it wouldn't be worth just doing the four lines of code to create the admin for your model.

 

Will Vincent  14:15  

Yeah, yeah, you always want some sort of admin view. I mean, and then especially, as you said, with the permissions built in, I mean, more and more. Everyone in the company, even non technical people need a way to look at the, you know, business people marketing sales to look at the data. And there's lots of, you know, Django comes with out of the box, which is super strong feature, you know, another, you know, I'd say, what's the top list of things that makes Django special, you know, forms, so forms, search bar entering user input. That's the core of almost every website. Django really handles that in elegant way I would say, in terms of you can get up and running quickly, but you also can customize it and all the security stuff, or the security stuff is very Well handled, like the strengthen

 

Carlton Gibson  15:02  

accommodation. And you know, there's so

 

Will Vincent  15:04  

many ways you can make a mistake, especially when you're learning. But even as a pro, there's just so many. Yeah, so many things that Django, you know, and we should mention them among your other projects you are now and maintain Django crispy forms, which is an add on to.

 

Carlton Gibson  15:19  

Yeah, so that's that that's good. Like, I don't know, you might want to have, say you've got a model field, which isn't part of the form, it enables you to create a nice form layout, which so you've got, like the form fields that you want editable, and then a few model fields, and then some more form fields. It's kind of cool for defining model fields and or form layouts, which are a non standard. It makes it into a nice programmatic interfaces. It's a good package.

 

Will Vincent  15:48  

Yeah. And that's, that's, you know, I guess the next point, that's a example of a third party package, which there are many with Django, so you know, Django sort of gives you a lot batteries included, but then there is a very robust ecosystem of these third party packages where you can, you know, enhance or customize a built in feature or you can have additional functionality that isn't in Django itself, because it's, you know, it doesn't need to be or, you know, there's a lot to maintain with Django as is. But there's, there's, you know, there's so there's a Django packages website. We'll link to that. And we should do

 

Carlton Gibson  16:21  

a show on our favorite packages, I think,

 

Will Vincent  16:23  

yeah,

 

Carlton Gibson  16:24  

they say like third party packages or Django secret sauce. And then for almost anything you can think of there's there's a third party package out that implements it, and either it's, it's well maintained and feature complete, in which case, just use it. Or it's at least a prototype that you can copy and paste your own code off, depending on you know, the state of completeness of a third party package. But

 

Will Vincent  16:45  

yeah, it's

 

Carlton Gibson  16:45  

it. The richness of Django is ecosystem especially after all this time. It's something irreplaceable, I think.

 

Will Vincent  16:52  

Yeah, and that's something that I think would experience, you know, Jenga is not a shiny new toy anymore, but it's still being active. worked on and improved. And that's really valuable when you're actually have some experience and get burned by, you know, early stage frameworks change a lot. Yeah. And you have to ask yourself, are you? Do you want to have a, you know, a website or build a company or? And you know, to have some stability there, or do you want to just play around and so, you know, I've been burned. I think a lot of people over the course of their career have been burned by frameworks, new frameworks, that changed a lot because they have to, but you know, Django is very mature. And yet under active development,

 

Carlton Gibson  17:32  

yeah, so good in that respect, in that you can be on the latest version quite easily without any problems because it is stable, it is secure is mature. And that means that you don't have to worry that the new version is broken your entire site and that you're gonna have to restructure everything and then you're going to end up on an unsupported version, you know that we're on version 2.1, nearly 2.2. We're going to be on version three this year. That though big numbers, they mean something it's not nought point, something, something

 

Will Vincent  18:03  

like that. Right. And, yeah, I mean, that's something that, um, you know, like all good advice. If you haven't experienced this yet, this probably isn't clicking for you. But if you have, it really does, so trust us, it's a positive, to have a mature framework.

 

Carlton Gibson  18:17  

I think it makes it, I think it makes it really exciting. It means that you can be right on the edge, you can get all the new features all the bug fixes without having to worry about your site falling over because something changed, that you were relying on.

 

Will Vincent  18:31  

Right. And again, you know, this is another trap for engineers is how much do you want to work on the plumbing versus the special sauce? And you know, it's good to do both. And certainly there are things about the plumbing that are really interesting and challenging. But, you know, for most people, I think you you want to focus on something that differentiates it in some way. And so using a tool like Jenga, which can be customized, which can be improved is the way to spend your time rather than you know, if you want to write a web framework from scratch, go for it, but don't yourself, you can start a company and build a web framework from scratch. Yeah, that's not gonna work.

 

Carlton Gibson  19:06  

You got to be somewhat conservative in your technology choices, right? You've you always on the latest database always on the latest web framework always late on the latest front end framework. You're never going to get anything bill.

 

Will Vincent  19:17  

Right, right. But yeah, you know, you need to stay current. And we have a, we'll do a separate episode on Django versions and talk about how, you know, the Django roadmap for changes, but it is advancing and also well thought out. So you know, if you're on if you're using Django, you can stay up to date. What else testing. So this is one looking at you JavaScript, that Django has its own test, and also takes advantage of pythons built in tests and tests are fantastic to use in Django. And this is another one where with experience you go, how can I not have something with robust testing and yet, not every web framework does?

 

Carlton Gibson  19:57  

Well, there's two parts to it. One is the is the where is the framework itself well tested, and Django is. And this. The other is does it provide tools that enable you to write tests for your own code easily, and Django does? So there's there's two aspects of it. Both are important.

 

Will Vincent  20:15  

Yeah. And there's, you know, you know, sort of, I guess, the last big thing I would say is when Django is called the user model, so every web frameworks have some way for users to sign up to login. And there are different choices framework can make around that. You know, Django gives you built in options, but it's also very customizable. And I think, you know, that's an Good choice that it makes. But that's where the last major component of any web framework is, you need to have some sort of user registration. And you know, there's things like social authentication two factor. We do a whole episode on that, but Django gives you something to get up and running. And then there are third party packages and built in ways that you can kind of make your choices Because there isn't one user authentication technique that works for everyone at this point,

 

Carlton Gibson  21:05  

no, like, What do you want? Do you want to be people to be able to create user accounts or give them user accounts, and then you want them to have to login and then get them to be able to create blog posts, have their own articles that their own, or whatever your content is.

 

Will Vincent  21:20  

And yeah, and you've got all that, that

 

Carlton Gibson  21:21  

user and then you want to restrict access just to their ones not to everybody's, and Django gives you the basic building blocks for all of that. And then yeah, that's if you want to Facebook login, that's third party apps for that, and your two factor auth a third party app that you know, the this is where the the ecosystem is great, there's the foundation and then the surrounding things which add on all the the the extra it would be impossible, it would make, you know, to include every single thing in the core is just make it a maintenance impossibility.

 

Will Vincent  21:51  

Right, right. And that's, you know, that's because that is a good beginner question of why have third party packages, why not have everything in there and it's there's just too much to manage too many things. containers and

 

Carlton Gibson  22:00  

yeah, in too much complication like, there comes a batteries included is all very well but kitchen sink included Well, there comes a point where if it's not suitable for your project, why do you need it? And this is on that continuum, again between micro frameworks and more full featured frameworks. And hopefully Django has something of a sweet spot and its batteries, including it's got the core, and then with the ecosystem as well. It's got all the other things you want. And it's extensible too.

 

Will Vincent  22:27  

So when I sort of tell people, you know, what is Django and why should you use Django? You know, the big points I sort of had is, look, it's it's really popular. It's been around for a while. It's used by some of the biggest websites in the world, like Instagram is probably the most prominent example Pinterest. Yeah, welcome. Yeah. Yeah, I think Pinterest maybe moved off. You know, when you get to a certain size, you know, everything kind of gets custom. But you know, a huge one is it's built in, in Python, which Python is a great choice for learning how to program and so if you're new to programming, can you To build a website, you know, Django is a great choice for you, you know, you should always just like you should learn multiple programming languages, you should learn multiple web frameworks. But if you have to pick one starting out, I think Django is a great choice. And again, it's just like the Python programming language. it's scalable, you can get up and going, but you can also use it on the biggest sites in the world. And that's not a common feat for many technologies that they can span that spectrum.

 

Carlton Gibson  23:23  

Yeah, it's something like that. So I mean, you know, the story for beginners is certainly compelling. But also the story for to keep going with it. Why? Why am I abandoned it for something else? Yeah. You know, over the years, I've used multiple frameworks in multiple languages. And why do I stick with Django? Because ultimately, when it comes to write a website, it's got all the tools I need.

 

Will Vincent  23:45  

Yeah. And we haven't even touched upon, you know, API support, which Django is extremely strong with. And in some ways, that's probably what more intermediate advanced level people come to Django. You know, come to Django for if they haven't already used it, as they say, right. I need to build that RESTful API, look around. And you know, with Django rest framework, you get a very Django like approach, which is not common with many API frameworks.

 

Carlton Gibson  24:11  

Yes. And then so you spend a few years writing writing API's using Django rest framework. And then you come back and you think actually, the rest of Django is exactly what I need for building the rest of the site around it.

 

Will Vincent  24:23  

Yeah, yeah, it'd be I'd be, I'd be curious how many people you know what the progression is, if people you know, jump into Django rest framework? I mean, I think generally, I think API's are a next stage after you build websites in some fashion. But to have, you know,

 

Carlton Gibson  24:36  

if I had to guess, if I had to guess on that, I would say that people build some basic websites using, say Django just as when they're learning, and then they get they find themselves in a professional situation where they're writing an actual application and all they're all they're immediately writing API's.

 

Will Vincent  24:52  

Yeah, that's the thing that when people are learning, you know, it's, yeah, most Django developers in a professional context, as you say, are probably writing API. And, and yet, you know, if you are going to build a full stack, you know, so dedicated back end front end application as a solo. You know, engineer that's that's quite a challenge. It doesn't make quite as much sense. But in any company setting you're going to be you're going to be focusing and very specific in your, in your what you're doing day to day anyways. Yeah,

 

Carlton Gibson  25:20  

I mean, there's a difference between a side project that you write by yourself, and then something you're doing in a bigger company, if you're, if you're working on Django in a bigger company, almost certainly using rest framework, and then they've got front end engineers, which are using react or view or, you know, whatever this week's hotness is,

 

Will Vincent  25:38  

yeah, yeah. But that is that, you know, when people are learning, you know, it's like, okay, I want to learn how to program. Alright, we'll learn how to build static sites with HTML and CSS, and Now sprinkle in JavaScript, and now learn about, you know, databases and user authentication. On the way fashion. Yeah, command line, right. Yeah. And then, okay, great. I'll use Django, you know, because I have this people read my books and like, yeah, and they're like, wait, what's what's The API's, it's like, oh, yeah, well, actually, you're probably writing API's with it. And then they write that and they're like, Oh, great. It's like, Oh, now I need to learn a front end framework. So there is a degree to which you sort of go, oh my god. But you do I think you can, you know, with practice, you can remove yourself and say, right, these are how the pieces fit together. And you can't master them all. But you can play around with them in a professional setting, you'll generally focus a bit your skills, and you know, to to plug Django again, Django is kind of there for you all the way through. And if you've used Django and then you switch to something else, you're going to be spoiled.

 

Carlton Gibson  26:37  

Yeah, I mean, again,

 

Will Vincent  26:38  

unless it's rails, which has a similar idea you're used to batteries included but customizable, and then you have to just do all the guts yourself. Just take so much time.

 

Carlton Gibson  26:48  

And yeah, and as well, I think the other the the other way of looking at it. It's in the context of the wider technology where you have this front end frameworks, this DevOps stuff, there's databases, this search engines, as There's all these tools Django by focusing on Django, which makes a lot of the decisions for you, you keep the surface area of what you need to know, for that component, that back end web application component is smaller than it would otherwise be.

 

Will Vincent  27:13  

Yeah, the actual code that you are writing is very, very concise and the things

 

Carlton Gibson  27:17  

you have to know. You don't have to know all the surrounding ecosystem packages. You don't have to know the details because Django has made those decisions for you.

 

Will Vincent  27:27  

Yeah, right. That's why I think most micro frameworks are much more suitable to advanced users rather than someone intermediate level.

 

Carlton Gibson  27:35  

Yeah, I think that's Yeah, I mean, yeah, I couldn't I for beginner, advanced beginner, even competent people. I wouldn't recommend micro frameworks, because I think you're making the job too hard for yourself. Sure. If you want when you're an expert, you do what you want.

 

Will Vincent  27:51  

Yeah, well, and you know, like all good advice. I mean, what I find is I tell people that they sometimes don't listen, they go off and then they get stuck with it. Micro framework, and then come back and say, Oh, you were you were right. But that's learning to that's part of learning. Yeah,

 

Unknown Speaker  28:06  

that's fine.

 

Carlton Gibson  28:07  

Yeah, we that's what it's called. Experience. Yeah.

 

Will Vincent  28:10  

If you're with a micro framework, and you're feeling really stuck and confused by all the third party packages, try something like Django and see how that goes for you.

 

Carlton Gibson  28:18  

Yeah, and like it but like, whenever you try anything, you have to give it time. There's no but like, you know, I Oh, I did. I tried flask for a day it didn't like it. I tried Django for a day. No, it things take longer than that. So you have to give everything it's it's deep, deep thoughts. Well,

 

Will Vincent  28:33  

alright, so what anything else we want to mention, before we wrap up? Like? Well, there's, you know, this is one of the early episodes, there's so many more areas we're going to talk about. So if you have feedback, please let us know. You can go to our website, Jango chat.com. And if there are topics you want us to discuss, you can suggest them. We have a lot of things we're going to talk about, but let us know. Yeah.

 

Carlton Gibson  28:56  

Ping us on Twitter chat Tango, China.

 

Will Vincent  28:59  

All right. We'll see next time bye bye