Kátia is a Board Member of the Django Software Foundation and a Framework Engineer at Fly.io. We discuss her academic background in Brazil, moving to Europe to study and work, and rotating between individual contributor and manager roles.
Will Vincent 0:06
Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat podcast on the Django web framework. I'm Will Vincent joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello, Carlton.
Carlton Gibson 0:12
Hello, Will.
Will Vincent 0:13
And we're very pleased to welcome Kátia Nakamura from fly.io. Welcome.
Kátia Nakamura 0:17
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Carlton Gibson 0:18
Thank you for coming on.
Will Vincent 0:20
Thank you for coming on. So you and I worked together on the Django Software Foundation Board for many years. And you're still on the board, so we can talk about that. But I realized that even though I've worked with you from many years, I didn't I don't really know much about your background other than I know you're originally from Brazil, and you live in Berlin now. But maybe you could talk about how did you get into programming and what brought you from there to is you're still in Berlin? Is that correct? Yeah,
Kátia Nakamura 0:46
I'm still in Berlin.
Will Vincent 0:46
I'm still living here. Okay, so that's, that's a bit of a change, you know, studying computer science and then making your way over to, to Germany. Yeah.
Kátia Nakamura 0:55
So I will start at the beginning. So yeah, please, for my bachelor in computer science, I actually had a technical course, before, before my my bachelor. And it was called, like industry, industrial informatics or something like that. That's how I started with programming or anything related to that to computers. And this was 2005. And I think that that was my first contact with programming. I think we didn't even do like any work. Definitely anything like web programming, or anything like that. I started like that. And it's funny, because I didn't choose that. It was more like, Okay, this is the list of courses that I can apply for, and what are the ones that I don't want to do? And I ended up like, Yeah, I think there's informatics computers. I like computers. I like internet. So let's do it. So that's how I started. And before starting my, my bachelor I, I wanted to do like engineering. And that that was my focus, because I always loved math. And I was going to that direction. So I decided to apply for like computer science or computer engineering, these kind of roles. Then, I got accepted on computer science, and I went there, but I at that point, like I didn't know the difference. So I, I want you to live in another city in Brazil, interested computer science. During my bachelor, I had the opportunity to come to Europe for the first time to do it was like a scholarship and it's called like Erasmus Mundus. They don't exist anymore. I think they call like it was most boss or something. I went to Czech Republic. So I stayed there for for a year. And I went to the university there. It was like informatics or something. And during this period, I was traveling here in Europe. So I've I should not have money. And I have I had a lot of time, basically. So I wanted to understand like, How can I travel with this companies in pay the list? So that's how my thesis from my bachelor started. So I wanted to solve this kind of problem, because I wanted to solve for me.
Will Vincent 3:49
Yeah. And then you realize it's one of the unsolved problems of computer science.
Kátia Nakamura 3:54
Exactly. So it is well, it's similar. So to the traveling salesman problem, and basically I wanted to apply for like traveling as a like a backpacker, that that point was like really traveling backpack. That's the name of the problem. My thesis. So Oh, yeah, it's called traveling SEC Becker problem something similar. It is it is like generalization of the TSP the travel Salesman Problem. II, because basically, the TSP you, you want to visit the cities and then you have the path between them. But in the case of like flights, you don't always have the path depending on the time that you are traveling, basically, so it's more restricted. So okay, so yeah, there are there are a lot of restrictions that we have to take into consideration. So it was like a really interesting problem to solve. So it was fun. And
Will Vincent 5:08
this was your, your bachelor's thesis or your master's thesis. So
Kátia Nakamura 5:12
it started as my bachelor. And then I went to Masters with the same problem and trying to improve, basically.
Will Vincent 5:22
Can I ask what what is it like? So computer science is a very male dominated field. And I imagine at university as well, was that the case for you with that as mainly men in your classes? Well,
Kátia Nakamura 5:34
definitely, mainly. But we had a lot of women in my bachelor, and I think even in my master's, master's, it was like computer science, but it was a specific field with school, like operations research, which is that area that solves this optimization problems. So definitely, definitely, it was even like my technical course. It was like, mainly, man, but I think my bachelor was, like, 50 people, maybe 1015. Women? Yeah.
Will Vincent 6:19
Okay. Because it's, it's odd to me that at least in the United States, most universities are, there's more women than men, because women are, are better students. And yet, computer science. It's true. Like, it's, I think it's seven out of 10 valedictorians. So the person who's number one in their class in high school in the US, are women, and you actually get an advantage applying to college as a man because it's less competition. Women do better academically, but yeah. But and yet computer science, and in many of the hard sciences, though, it's changing because you have so many smart women coming in, but they still seem to have a male bent. So you persevere through that. Because like, for me, abstract math and computer science, I don't think I wouldn't, it wouldn't work for me. Like, I need to know what the problem is. Which a long way of saying, but maybe for you, if you identified this personal problem, and then it had applications, in theory that probably really helped you. Stay motivated.
Kátia Nakamura 7:20
Yeah, definitely. And I think it was the opposite for me, because I'm really visual. Okay, I like to visualize the problems. So it's not really, if you say something to me, like, and I cannot picture this the problem itself, it's really hard for me to solve. So for me, this was like a real life example to solve. So it makes sense for me. Okay, so
Carlton Gibson 7:48
like, so when you say that I'm taking world traveling sales problem is a is a graph problem. So you're going to plot that you're going to use like graph visualization, and all these tools that are in the Python ecosystem. How, like, how, why Python and how
Will Vincent 8:01
well, you didn't do it in Python, though, right?
Carlton Gibson 8:02
Yeah, exactly. Because computer science is always like C and Java and all these other things. But how Python in the end?
Kátia Nakamura 8:11
Yeah, so I didn't he didn't do my master's, or even my bachelor in Python. At that point. I didn't know Python at all. And I was doing Java because I had I was working as a Java developer. So it was easier for me to do both things at the same time.
Carlton Gibson 8:32
I go before you carry on because I just asked, Were you then traveling around Europe funding your travels by being a Java developer?
Kátia Nakamura 8:40
Was that? No, no, I had like a scholarship.
Carlton Gibson 8:44
Right. Okay. Okay. I was I was wondering if you like the original digital nomad. That's
Kátia Nakamura 8:49
really why I have money from like Erasmus. So they gave me money for a year, but I was working before I came here. And then when I came back, I got I got the same job. Like, I just went back to the same job. Okay. So yeah, so when I went back, I went to my masters. And then I wanted to come back to Europe. Like that was my plan. I like I want to work there, or once you leave there, so I wanted to have the experience again, oh, it's sorry. It's not always the same experience. And it's never going to be as like an exchange student, but I wanted to come back. So I was talking to a friend from from the university, from from Czech Republic. And he told me that there were those that were the word these guys they came to the university to give, give a talk. And they had this company, this startup. And it was like similar to what I was doing. He didn't know exactly what I was doing, but he knew it was like flights that traveling. And he gave I don't remember what happened, but I think he gave gave me the name or the company or email or something. I contacted them. They are the founders of kiva.com. So that's how I met them for the first time. So they actually provided being with the data to for my tests for my bachelor and my masters. And, and yeah, so it was like really funny too. I didn't even know them like, so I was explaining like, Okay, I'm doing this. Now I'm trying to solve this problem. So I think it's related. And they just like gave me like a dump of the database that they had at the time, like with data from from the flights, the prices, so I could test. And at that point, like, I knew I wanted to come here and work with them. But I want to musters so that was what I decided to do. But it's really hard to survive in Brazil, if you are like, if you do anything related to research and like, university, like so it's really hard. So what at some point and decided to go back to the company that I was working before. And at that point, I was already like planning to come here. So I was planning to apply for the job. But I knew that they were using Python. So I was like, Okay, I need to learn Python. And maybe it's it's like a big coincidence. But that here, there was a Python, Brazil, which is like the PyCon in Brazil, in my city. So it was organized in my city. And they had like a jungle Girls workshop during the weekend. And I decided to drop out. I didn't even know what was the point like, I was going to conferences and events, but not as much as here. But I was trying to participate in I apply for the Django Girls. And it was good because it was over the weekend. Otherwise, I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to go because I was working with Java. So I could say like, Okay, can I take a day to go to this day? Yeah, so I didn't go to the conference to the PyCon to the Python, Brazil, but I went to the jungle girls over the weekend. That's my first experience with jungle. So I went to this jungle girls, and they actually had like, two days, it was like Saturday and Sunday. So I met a lot of people during the conference. After the jungle girls, I applied for the job for the job@kiva.com. And I got the job like a few months later. But then we had all the all the process of the visa and I just like quit my job. I didn't even know like I just signed my contract yet. But I just I knew I knew I was coming. So I quit my job. And at the same time I apply for the there was like the jungle calm Europe. They had like they they had like money to support people to come to the opportunity card. Yeah, exactly. So I applied for that. And I got it for the Django con Europe in 2016. It wasn't the jungle grows, I was like end of 2015. So it was like few months later. So it was laying in Budapest. It was in Hungary. And I came so it was like the first time that I was coming through like a jungle calm. And that was my first jungle calm. And at the same time like because it was in Budapest. It was like really close to Czech Republic, I went to the city to visit the company that I was going to work for him because at that point I wasn't like formally working for them yet. And I was still going through the process of the visa so I just went to visit and
Carlton Gibson 14:26
when you talk about getting the visa you sort of the gesture user is one of I don't want to think about payment Scotts because even with a company sponsoring you it's not easy, right? No,
Kátia Nakamura 14:36
it's not easy. Oh, it's it's a long process. But I maybe I was lucky because I always had like help from the company even when I came here to Germany so I had a lot of help. But it's still like a lot of documents, things to be translated and things should be sent here in Brazil. And but they helped me a lot So it's funny because I, I went to Czech Republic, and I had to apply for the visa and in Czech Republic, but I couldn't apply from within Czech Republic I had to go to Austria to apply. So those those are the things like small things, but it was it was okay. They call
Carlton Gibson 15:21
that Britain they call it a hostile hostile environment. Just make it just make it difficult.
Will Vincent 15:27
Can I ask what? When you studied in the Czech Republic? What language was your courses? And was it an English? Was it in check?
Kátia Nakamura 15:35
Oh, it was an English. I don't know. I still don't know.
Will Vincent 15:42
Check. So I mean, check is famous, famously hard to learn. Yeah,
Kátia Nakamura 15:46
yeah, exactly. I think it's harder than German, German. So they say but I didn't learn I spent like five years there. I don't know how I survived. I don't know. But I didn't learn. How
Will Vincent 16:02
did you how did you learn English so well, was that before you got into programming or
Kátia Nakamura 16:08
so when I came here for the exchange student has a an exchange student. I, I couldn't speak English. Like I, I went to school in Brazil, like truly English school and but it was like basics, you would go to the class you would know like to exercise, but I do not have experienced like talking. So I think I would have enjoyed a lot if I knew more, because I was really afraid of talking to people. Then when I went back to to Brazil, during my master's, I spent like three months in Canada, in Quebec City, which is French actually not English, but I communicated in English, Canadian
Will Vincent 17:00
French too. So it's different. Like Catalonia a little bit Carlton, right? It's like
Kátia Nakamura 17:05
Quebec, wah, I don't know how, what is the term and the difference was this time I was alone. So I went by myself. And during the when I was in Czech Republic, I went there with a friend who actually got the the scholarship as well. So I was like, lucky that I knew someone and then I met a lot of Brazilians. So a lot of people like even people from Portugal. When I went to Canada, I was by myself. So I had to talk. I feel like at that point, I was like, a bit more comfortable, but not enough. And even when I moved to Czech Republic, I, I wasn't confident about my English. Not even today.
Will Vincent 17:54
I know you say that today. But like,
Carlton Gibson 17:58
during this is fantastic. So let's just put that on the table right away.
Will Vincent 18:03
When I say so sorry. So Quebec, I just want to follow up on because I'm just people who, you know, you and Carlton who's fluently speak so many languages. It's such a different thing than an American. When did you go to Quebec City for English? Was that the intent? Was it an English program where you just went there and then had to speak English.
Kátia Nakamura 18:21
So I went to Quebec City to do like, research was like, during my master's. So I went there to work with like a professor professors in the Laval University. And we were doing research to write the paper. So basically, but it was also like, how do you call that? Or they gave me money to go there to spend those three months? Like it was like a project?
Will Vincent 18:55
Yeah, stipend. Grant. Yeah, yeah.
Kátia Nakamura 18:59
Kind of like a scholarship. Yeah, similar, but it was like, three months, and we had, like, all the timeline and what we were supposed to work on. And we were supposed to write the paper after. So that was the purpose.
Will Vincent 19:15
It's just, that's so much to juggle, you know, a new language, new programming a new environment, it's just like, you must have had to come home and collapse a little bit after just to like, I don't want to I don't want to talk to anyone for I would for a week or two. No,
Kátia Nakamura 19:31
I didn't feel like that. Maybe today. I would feel like that. I can't imagine doing that. But I think at that point was everything was new for me. Like I I always wanted to go to Canada. So for me it was like a trip also to visit. So yeah, yeah, it was a fun experience.
Will Vincent 19:54
Carlton, you are gonna say something? Yeah, no, I
Carlton Gibson 19:56
just this topic of English. You know, when I when I start without it was just like, No, I just learned English like, that's what he got to do like, it's like hang on a sec could step back a little bit. Hang on somebody wants to learn programming, they want to learn a new subject, they go and learn another language as well, that just seems, seems a bit much to me like yeah, no, no. Do you think we think we do better now is another thing I mean, like so if you're in Brazil now and you speak Brazilian Portuguese and you want to learn programming, are there more resources now than they were when you started? Or do you? You know, are we making progress? Oh, definitely.
Kátia Nakamura 20:33
Okay. Would you will have, like, all the content that we have today, like you, today, you can learn from anywhere your computer at that point, like, I think I learned by doing it. So when I went to Czech Republic, I remember like, the first days are different, like the first months probably I was afraid of like, not understanding people or not like, they're, they're gonna ask me to, to, like they're gonna give me requirements, they're gonna give me tasks. And if I don't understand what the the main, like, what I'm gonna do, so I was like really afraid. But at that point, I wasn't like studying except from like, doing some English in Brazil, like years years ago. I think I learned on the way. Yeah,
Carlton Gibson 21:26
right. You just pick it up as you need to.
Will Vincent 21:29
Well, Carleton, I mean, you had Spanish, right? Like you you traveled a bit, which I imagine polished your Spanish before you No,
Carlton Gibson 21:35
no, no, no, right. Okay. But I worked. I went to I had a couple of words. I went to Guatemala and I studied for you know, however long and I could just about order a few beers. By the end of it. It wasn't till I moved here that I actually developed any an any sort of ability, and I had lessons and I and it took years I've been here 12 years now. And so okay, I can speak Okay, Spanish, but it's not something you can pick up instantly. It just isn't. It just is. It takes just takes time. It's a life project.
Will Vincent 22:09
was a five years you work there in the Czech Republic.
Kátia Nakamura 22:12
Oh, yeah. I was there for five years.
Will Vincent 22:17
At QE. And then you made your way to Germany. Yeah.
Carlton Gibson 22:23
How'd you get to Berlin? Yeah,
Will Vincent 22:24
I think it's Berlin is quite yet. Yeah, so it's very hip.
Carlton Gibson 22:29
We should we should have a Django con European. Berlin. Yeah.
Kátia Nakamura 22:33
Yeah. That's one of the ideas. I don't know if song but if I stay here for knows. But yeah, so
Carlton Gibson 22:46
I'm only teasing.
Kátia Nakamura 22:48
I, I stayed there for five years. It seems like 10 years. I think what I'm, my my decision to move here was mostly based on the pandemic, I would say it was, it wasn't like about the company or about what I was doing, it was more like I need a change, I think. So, I decided to start looking for for other companies or even like doing something else. And if I left the company as a tech lead, and I got a job here as an engineer, engineering manager, I wanted to try this path of like management. So I decided to accept but then basically, I moved here to Germany, I was working as an engineer manager, like basically full time management. And I was working in a company doing was like data infrastructure. So he was like, completely different from what I was doing in a different place, in a different position. So everything changed. And I think it was a bit too much for me. It was I was there for like a year. And it was fun. But at the same time I I wasn't happy with what I was doing. Like as for for my job, specifically
Carlton Gibson 24:29
then into programming can sorry, programming programming and managing people that they're not the same. No. It's It's so different. It's not clear though, that it's, it's the standard path. I'm gonna go into management because what more of the 10 years of programming has trained you to be a manager of people like
Kátia Nakamura 24:51
no, it's no, it's completely different. I think I gave a talk once talking about like the tech Leadership and saying that this is not a promotion. This is something else. Like, it's not a promotion, basically, you go to another path and you start doing other things. And I wasn't happy with having meetings, like three days a week, full day, basically, like, from one meeting to another meeting, doing one on ones. And I learned a lot of other things. Like, besides the tech part, you, you need to learn how to deal with people how to deal with, well, with the whole team, like, how do we work together, because we, during this year that I was in this company, there were a lot of changes, like people left, and then they hired some new people, and then this new people left as well. So there were a lot of changes and changes on the priority. So I had to, I have, I told my team like, Okay, I'm really frustrated. I told them because I was like, super frustrated, I was actually thinking of leaving before I left, so months before that. And I stayed because of them. One of the reasons like I wanted to leave at least, with them having some direction of like, Okay, from here, we're gonna go in this direction, because we, at some point, we plan, what we were going to work, we finish some work, and then we were gonna start something new, which was like designing something new. One day before someone told me that maybe this is not going to happen, maybe so. And that's one of the reasons I was like, really frustrated. And it was at that point, that I was like, Okay, I that's not what I like to do, basically. And we, I stayed there to to help the team. So we got other work instead of this one, at least until they decided what to do. When this was like, 2022. Yeah. Yeah. And this was like, May. And then in September, I went to jungle calm. It was like the first jungle calm probably. Portal after the the ones like once. And I remember when I was there, I was telling people like, oh, I finally, like, I was really happy to be there. Yeah, so I think I was also working with Python workbook. I wasn't doing any development, like any coding or anything like that. But I want to choose to work with Python again, or at least like if I had the opportunity, like, it will be my my first choice, but not, I wasn't really working, looking for only Python or jungle related jobs. But I decided to leave like, I wasn't really happy with like, only management things. And I, like I came back from the vacation because I took vacation to go to jungle calls. I came back from my vacation. And then I quit. It was basically like I came back on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday I talked to to my manager, which was actually my, the manager of my manager, because my manager had left at night vacations. So
Will Vincent 28:57
during your vacation, Oh, wow. During my vacation. So
Carlton Gibson 29:01
this whole section is an advert of why you should come to like, yeah, it will fix your problems.
Kátia Nakamura 29:08
Yeah, exactly. So I just went there. It's been like few days with all those people talking and like, it was great. It was like really great. Because I came back I was like, yeah, that that's what I want to do. Like I want to keep doing it. So I came back and I quit but I quit without another job. So that was how much I wanted to leave the job. And it wasn't like the company the company was great. And like the people my team like they were great, but it was I think specially the type of work I was doing like management wasn't really what I wanted to do. And I don't regret because I I chose to do that. So I could see if that's something that I'm interested in No, at least not now. Maybe someday. Again, maybe the next life. Maybe the next life. Yeah.
Carlton Gibson 30:12
So you're at fly now. So did you manage to find? How did you hook up with them?
Kátia Nakamura 30:17
Yeah. So I quit my job. And then I left. One month later, like end of October. In November, December, I was looking for a job. And I remember that it wasn't like a great time, because there were all of those layoffs and everything was happening during that point. And I applied for a few companies like, I don't go well, in interviews, I could get really nervous. It's not something that I really, I don't think that maybe some people enjoyed enjoy doing it. But I don't think so no stuff. Most of them don't know, it's horrible.
Will Vincent 30:59
That's a red flag. If somebody enjoys interviews, and like racking up offers, it's a separate skill
Kátia Nakamura 31:04
set. Yeah, I can't imagine that. But I believe there, there are some people who enjoy them. I don't like that. And I decided to just speak just a few companies that I would apply, because I didn't want to have like five interviews in the same week. And I wasn't working like it's not like I was busy. But I was preparing for for the interviews. But at the same time, I did get really stressed really, it's it's not something good. And I knew that at least like one per week or two, maybe it will be okay for me to do. So I picked like few companies, I think I applied for maybe three to four or three. And then in December, Mark from fly.io, he contacted me. And I think when I read the description of the job, I was like, Oh, interesting, because it's not something that I have experienced with it's, it's more like marketing, because it's similar to like a Developer Advocate, but a bit different.
Carlton Gibson 32:15
But what's your actual title? Or should you do your job title?
Kátia Nakamura 32:20
Like the title is framework engineer?
Carlton Gibson 32:23
Okay.
Kátia Nakamura 32:24
Yeah. It's Yeah, it's interesting, because it is different. Like, it's not really something that I would think but I don't know if they had this at the beginning, just because we have like different frameworks in the company, like teams inside of the company for each framework. So it's more focusing on promoting fly to that specific framework. So I think that's the idea.
Carlton Gibson 32:52
And you'll also be used to get to do a bit of like, not just a bit, but quite a lot of like working out. Well, the best way to integrate with China, for instance.
Kátia Nakamura 32:59
Yeah, exactly. So I think that's the main the main thing that we need to do to understand like the community, what they're doing and how Fli can be applied to those like use cases, and understand but at the same time, like, it's funny, because how I met fly was before that, like I already knew fly at that point when they contacted me. But like a month before, it was November when there Hiroko was the day they don't they don't have the free. How do you say that? free tier, their free tier? Yeah. So they, they ended the free tier in November. I had like a project like a personal project, and then I had to move to another place. That's how I discovered like fi and maybe it was your post? Will. Maybe you talked about them.
Will Vincent 34:06
Yeah. similar experience with roku. Yeah, I said, I did a I did a tutorial on Django and fly. And then actually, it talked to Mark around that time. I wish I wish I'd known. We didn't mention but you've been on the board with me for like multiple years. At this point. I wish you told me you were looking because I was aware that they were looking. But yeah, I did a tutorial and then I yeah, I wrote the first Django section for fly.io I think it was just two tutorials. So I worked with Mark on that. But then I was doing other things. But then he then he told me I think when they hired you and I was like, oh my god like yeah, she yes higher. Absolutely. But that was I think that was a lot of hosting companies right Heroku doing that met everyone suddenly was looking at Around fly and render and railway, and there's a whole bunch of ones. Yeah, I'm curious. And I don't know how much you can or want to talk about, you know, being internal at fly during that time, because one thing I realized is that they were, they were changing, you know, it's a lot of work to be a hosting company, and to have to do that. And then to have framework specific tools and fly has a really powerful command line. Tool. How do I say this? It could, it could use improvements to be specific to Django, so I worked very, very briefly on that. But it keeps developing every time I update, fly CTL. It's like every week, there's a new update. So I have a lot of appreciation for how challenging it is. To do that, but I think they're getting to the point where a lot of things like I wrote about in this tutorial and book you don't have to do anymore, because they're automating it. So it's good for customers. It's a little frustrating for me as a content creator. But that's, you know, that's the least important thing out of it. Yeah, always just always just to say and now I've seen you know, fly Django section, you've written a ton. Were you involved with bringing moreish? Feliciana onboard? Or how did that come about? Right, because one of our Django Fellows is now also writing for fly.
Kátia Nakamura 36:13
Yeah, so I wasn't involved. Like Mark told me like, oh, there's this guy that I'm talking to you. And maybe it's gonna come like, do some blog posts, because that's how it started. I was like, Oh, who is it? And then he told me, it was like Mario Shin, I met Mario, like in person, probably the jungle contra went. So I was like, Oh, I know. I thought. Okay. It was great, because I already knew him. So it was like, easier to onboard him, basically. So like, we are a remote company. So we already work, like remotely. So it was a different with Monash, but I wasn't involved with like getting him so
Will Vincent 37:03
well, can you can you back up to. So the Django Software Foundation? You I think we joined at the same time at 2020. Is was that when you joined? Yes. 2020. So I didn't. So you were managing at this time? And I guess not working directly with Django. But then you're, you're still on the board? What what was that? Like? How did you become aware of the Django Software Foundation and then running? And I know, you know, I know, a lot of the work you've been doing. Could you just speak about what it's been like, now? Is it for three, four years? How many years on the board? I think four years. Four years? Yeah. Yeah. So how did how did you first find out about the board? Because I think a lot of people don't know about it, and then, you know, decide to run and all that. Yeah,
Kátia Nakamura 37:46
so I don't remember. Yeah, but what I remember which is like really interesting to mention is I applied, like I got I got at the DSF. In 2020. It was when the pandemic started. So it was like, different. I would say, I applied like, I think a year before maybe for the 2019 I think I applied, I didn't get in 2019. I went to the PyCon us for the first time. And when I went there, I met cordial, you know, proto kosher. Yeah, I went, I think I was getting like my badge or something. And I met him and he looked at my badge. And he said, like, Oh, you're Kucha, you, you apply for the JSF. Like, he remembered my name. And I was like, Oh, yeah. And he was like, Yeah, you didn't get but you should, you should apply again. And he basically, like encouraged me to apply again. So that's why I did so it's basically because of him that DSF I think at that point, like I didn't know a lot about the DSF. So but that's how I became involved in this. Like, it was like I need to thank counsel.
Will Vincent 39:13
Wow. And that was in Cleveland, right? 2019 I believe?
Kátia Nakamura 39:17
No, it was San Diego. Oh, for free. Did your Django Django call? Yeah. I've never been to PyCon us. Yeah, it was just us. Yeah, sorry. Okay,
Will Vincent 39:30
now that makes more sense. Okay, and then yeah, I mean, you know, so one of the reasons right the board now has two year terms is because there was a bunch of us new members, and then the pandemic hit. And so I think we didn't really know what else to expect but there was the board and especially you because you you know based in Europe, you were working a lot with the the Porto team. There was a real concern as I recall. All around. How do we get Django cones? going again? And how do we support them? And I remember you were I don't know if it's I don't think it was an official title. But you were like the Django con Europe liaison on on the board. It wasn't
Kátia Nakamura 40:14
like official or anything, but it was something that it is something that I still want to get more involved with the organization here. Now we have the working groups. So that's, that's finally something that we can like start looking for different.
Carlton Gibson 40:35
Can you just pause momentarily explain what's what the working group is? And what the idea is there? Because in case people haven't followed along?
Kátia Nakamura 40:43
I don't know the official. Okay. But yeah, well,
Will Vincent 40:47
I can I mean, so, Python. So the so the Django board is seven people. And we on the board, we talked to the Python board and found out that the board there just decides they don't do all the things the way the Django board does everything and manages it. And so Python has had some success with working groups, where other members of the community can take the lead on actually doing the things and I think that was one of the reasons why the DSF has tried and has now launched these working groups, because being on the board, you're already doing quite a bit of things. And it's, we realized over time that there just wasn't, these things weren't going to happen. For the, you know, you can ask the seven people on the board to keep doing more. So I think it was last year that the officially Django launched the working groups. Yeah.
Kátia Nakamura 41:38
Yeah, the last year. It like the first ones, like were launched, or, yeah, they, they started and take, we have like more ideas for for new ones. But for now, we know like some of the things that are important, and one of them are the jungle calm Europe organization. So for the conference, I
Will Vincent 42:07
mean, that's one of the things I'm most proud of, during my time in the board was the board's work to keep or to help Django con Europe, because unlike for those who don't know, unlike Django con us, which has definite, which has its own organization, Django events foundation in North America, Europe is new people every time almost so when you'd have a pause and hosting them. That causes challenges, and then setting up nonprofits for the money. And I think that the Porto team did an amazing job of continuing it and working on it. And now and they're helping also the Gen Con Europe this year as well, which is in Spain, but kind of just yeah, just just over the border, so that there's a lot of communication with the board with that group. And I do think we need to thank the that team for keeping Django con Europe going because it felt it felt like maybe it was going to go away at some point.
Kátia Nakamura 43:00
Yeah, almost.
Carlton Gibson 43:05
And so just this new, I mean, this podcast will come out in a few weeks. But the blog post blog post has put up this week for the call for proposals to host Django con Europe in 2025. So perhaps, you know, is it you know, if I think oh, can I have it in my town is? Am I gonna get I'm gonna get support is the point. There's people to help me in this, you know?
Kátia Nakamura 43:28
Yeah, I would say that. The working group is one of the reasons it is this is one of the reasons that we have the working group like to support the new organizers, here in Europe, because then a lot of people want to help but at the same time, they don't know where to start. And I'm one of them, like, I'm really interested on organizing a jungle calm. But at the same time, like, there are so many things that I have no idea that that's one of the reasons that I'm involved in the jungle comb this year. So I want you to learn, but we have now the working group, which will be like to share knowledge about the organization. And a lot of the organizers from from the jungle cones, they will be in this group to help others like the new ones.
Carlton Gibson 44:25
And if folks are listening, and they think, Oh, I could quite fancy putting on a Django, should they you know, even if that's just a fledging idea, they should get in touch. Right. And oh, yeah, definitely.
Kátia Nakamura 44:35
Because maybe you won't be the like main organizer, but you can always like help.
Will Vincent 44:41
So there's a GitHub repo for the working groups that I'll link in the show notes for people. Is that does that is that where people should go to find contact information and more
Kátia Nakamura 44:53
yet the GitHub right. Yeah.
Carlton Gibson 44:57
I wanted to ask you about the talks you've given because we've got a whole long list of talks you've given in various languages at various conferences, and SEC to that at the Django con coat. CFP is open for Gen Con Europe this year. So it's going to try and twist your arm into submitting for that.
Kátia Nakamura 45:15
So I don't I don't think I gave a lot of talks. Well, I've
Carlton Gibson 45:19
got a whole list on a piece of it. How many of you given at least half a dozen here?
Kátia Nakamura 45:24
No, but I think most of them were like, at the beginning when I went to Czech Republic when I started working with jungle, so I think most of them after that, I think I got more involved with the DSF and like volunteer for the jungle CO and thinks more behind the scenes.
Carlton Gibson 45:46
is talking part of your job at fly? You know, do you have to
Kátia Nakamura 45:49
know it's not. So I even I wanted to mention that. I love talks, but I hate public speaking. So it is something that I need to work on. Like it is one of the things fly will help with, like public speaking or even like practicing, doing maybe some workshops, definitely they have. So this kind of things. So it is something that I intend to do. I don't know if this year at Django con, I'm going to be like helping them as a volunteer. So I don't know if I'm gonna send but I want to come back. Like two talks, basically giving a talk in probably Python, Brazil. So, like in Portuguese, and I don't know if like today if I feel more comfortable giving talks in English or in Portuguese. Like, I feel it's really hard to give a talk in Portuguese now. Because most of the terms are in English. So it is it is weird. But I'm thinking about like Python, Brazil. Other than that, I still prefer the behind the scenes like doing other other types of work, basically. Well,
Carlton Gibson 47:20
you could always do a lightning talks any few minutes. Yeah.
Kátia Nakamura 47:24
Yeah. Great idea. I should I can, I can deploy jungle up to flying. Like three minutes. Yeah. Perfect.
Carlton Gibson 47:36
Live, live demo. That's, that's risking all the gods going wrong. That point about the languages. I think that's because, okay, Spanish is not my first language. But I you know, because I don't work in Spanish. Like, what alcohol I have to think I have to sit there and pause. What is the word for this? And what is the word for that every time. So to do it, the thought of doing a technical talk in Spanish is much scarier than doing one in English. I know. I'm native speaker. So it's, it's not quite analogous, but that that technical term point, it's what is? How do I describe this in that language?
Kátia Nakamura 48:12
Yeah, exactly. Or you if you translate? It feels weird. It feels wrong. Yeah.
Carlton Gibson 48:19
Oh, you just throw in the English word. And then it's like, that's not very nice. Either. Mixed? Yeah. You still speak German as well now? Or do you speak German as well?
Kátia Nakamura 48:28
No, I don't know, don't mind. I knew that Berlin was like an international series city. But like, it's always good to know the language like I was living in Czech Republic for five years. So I knew like I plan to start learning German, I didn't start and I feel like most of the time I don't need but when I need, like a really need. So I think most of the things that I need to do on a daily basis, I can I can do inclusion. They're the like, the bureaucracy that I cannot do anything in English, most of the things related to visa when I left my job, like it was really scary because I quit. And then I want to check like, Okay, I'm quitting my job, what do I need? Because I had my visa bounded to the company. And I was like, Can I quit? So I had to go to those the official place like for the work, like you need to let them know that you're leaving the job. So this kind of situations, it's really hard if you don't know, like German. So there are some situations. Is
Will Vincent 49:45
there any appeal of I mean, Spain is warm and Spanish is not too dissimilar. Was there ever any thought to that, or, I mean, you know, because I'm like, I'm from cold climates. But if I was from a warm climate, I don't, you know, Berlin does not have the weather of Munich, right? Berlin sort of famously doesn't have great weather. It's
Kátia Nakamura 50:04
always gray. It's snowing today. But it's not always like that. But it's always gray. I don't I don't mind about the weather like, guy. I like some, but I like cold weather. So I want to go north. Yeah,
Will Vincent 50:22
yeah. I feel the same way, Carlton. And I discussed this. I mean, he's, he's his soul is warmer than mine, I think. Yeah. But what so I did want to mention, we're almost up on time. But there's a whole section on the fly site Django beats that we'll put a link to that has the articles that you've written that Marsh has written? Because, yes, they are specific to fly. But I think 80% of them is really just general. Fantastic advice on doing things with Django, actually. So I just want to shout shout out, I always read read those. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that I learned something. And we feature them in the newsletter, even though generally the Django news newsletter, even though generally we don't do company specific things. But if it's very well done, and very Django II with a little add on, then we include it. But that's a that's a wonderful section to see that. Are there any. So I guess to form a question, are you going to continue to put the Django content there? Are there any big plans for that? That section of the site?
Kátia Nakamura 51:26
Yeah, so related to the blog, like the M, module, sure shirt, writing for the blog. Basically, what I'm trying to do, because minors is just basically a writing for the blog, it doesn't have like a lot of time. I'm focusing on integrating fly. And so I'm trying to understand more about fly and how to use jungle inside the flight, basically. So I want to mix those things like Mario's usually brings more like jungle content, which is great. And then I can focus more on like, physically mixing those fly in jungle.
Will Vincent 52:13
Yeah, got it? Well, one, one, the guests we had before you was Simon Wilson, one of the creators of Django, who works on dataset, and he's a big fan of flat out fly.io, in large part because of the security around private containers, which we don't have to get into. But I thought that was interesting that I believe that's, if not unique to fly. That's an unusual feature that when you spin up a new instance, on fly, it's its own private container. So like for me when I was updating my content on deployment from Heroku, to fly, the fact that Heroku is still git based, so you get push, and then it puts it on AWS, whereas with fly, it basically copies everything over to a container. And so that's a shift for people who are used to get base deployment, but seems to be the way all the modern hosting providers are doing, you know, not just fly, which is sort of interesting, but something something to learn for the old dogs used to use to get good pushes.
Kátia Nakamura 53:17
Or there are so many interesting features. And I saw like Simon talking to people, there's no like GE GPUs now with fly. So there are a lot of conversation, like AI. I don't I don't know exactly what he's doing. But I know he's around there and talking to two people from the company.
Will Vincent 53:39
Yeah, I mean, he can't keep up with him. He's He's everywhere with ideas and insights.
Carlton Gibson 53:46
Yeah, I can't keep up with Simon he's on Duolingo too. And I'm friends with him. They had this just friends challenge that we had done seven lessons and he'd done like 45 or so. It's like okay, yeah, that's
Will Vincent 54:01
probably while walking is walking his dog he was telling us that he he codes while walking his dog he has his phone and uses chat TPT to say he's just you know, constantly constantly on the brain, which is very, I always come away being like, I should be more passionate about coding talking to him, right? I mean, I am but like, yeah, levels started at Carleton,
Carlton Gibson 54:25
though I was just gonna say is one of those things don't do is compare yourself to Simon like it's
Will Vincent 54:29
no, no, no, no. Is there anything we we didn't ask you about or you want to raise as we conclude, I know we talked about a lot of a lot of things but I you know, having known you for all these years, I never knew that. Your real backstory on how you I just knew Oh, there's there's Katya. She lives from Brazil. She lives in Berlin. But you know, and then we talked about the matter at hand but none of the you don't really get the chance to find out about someone in their in their real background.
Kátia Nakamura 54:59
So Oh, no, no, you know, do you have any questions?
Will Vincent 55:05
Well, I think I asked you my question like, why don't you live somewhere warmer, but you like the cold. So that's
Kátia Nakamura 55:10
I like the cold weather. Oh, I love snow. Oh, this for now.
Will Vincent 55:16
Let's see. Right. Well, we have we'll have links to all these things. And again, for those who do speak Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese, all your talks, which you gave, which people should go and check out. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I hope I hope some listeners are thinking about also hosting a conference and reaching out to the working group or, or reaching out to you for for help on where to go from there. Yeah,
Kátia Nakamura 55:40
definitely. Thank you.
Will Vincent 55:42
No, thanks for coming on. Thank you so much. So we are Django chat.com. And we'll see everyone next time. Bye bye.