Keanya is a project manager at Caktus Group and Chair of DjangoCon US. We discuss her transition into coding via a bootcamp, working as a software engineer, using AI on the job, and her current role as a project manager.
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Will Vincent (00:00)
Welcome to another episode of Django Chat. I'm Will Vincent joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello Carlton.
Carlton Gibson (00:05)
Hello.
Will Vincent (00:05)
And we're very pleased to have Kenya Phelps join us, who is a project manager at Caktus Group Software Engineer and was chair of DjangoCon US in Chicago this fall. Thank you for taking the time.
Keanya (00:15)
Thank you for having me, Carlton, and Will
Carlton Gibson (00:18)
Thank you for coming on, I'm excited.
Will Vincent (00:20)
So maybe you could tell us, how did you get into coding originally because you didn't study it in undergrad like the two of us? I mean, we didn't study it either. ⁓
Keanya (00:27)
No, I didn't. ⁓
okay. Okay. Well, I mean, like everyone's life was blown up imploded during the COVID years. ⁓ That is where I got into coding. actually went...
to a coding boot camp. So I got into coding by way of coding boot camp. A little backstory, my sister, Jeanette O'Brien, she went through Momentum coding boot camp, which was located in ⁓ Raleigh, North Carolina. She went through that and ⁓ loved it and became an instructor. So... ⁓
It was impersonal. Like every time I had a tech question or anything, I would always reach out to my baby sister, Jeanette. And one day, you know, one day she's like, you know.
Will Vincent (01:20)
Hahaha
Keanya (01:24)
you could do this boot camp. I'm like, no, I couldn't. It took me three years to learn how to turn my computer on. And I'm definitely afraid of Mac Pro Books. So no. And she's like, no, you can do this. And it was more so she felt like she could teach anybody anything. So it was more of a challenge for her. And so I applied. And lo and behold, I got in. And it was more of a four-month intensive type, 40 to 50.
Will Vincent (01:41)
Mmm.
Keanya (01:52)
week.
immersive training. ⁓ Much to my surprise and delightment, if that's a word, I started picking it up really quickly and I loved it. And so there was an opportunity ⁓ for some fellowship work at Caktus. So I interviewed with some folks over there at the end of the program and they decided, okay, let's try.
out for a few months to see if it works out, starting off as a junior developer. ⁓
And I'm still here. So apparently it works out. It worked out. So it worked out. mean, in my previous life, always gravitated. My career was more so in account management and cell support. that's probably how. And in my mind, I wanted to be like a technical project manager. I wanted to manage projects. However, I wanted to have the technical prowess, if you will,
Carlton Gibson (02:34)
It went okay.
Will Vincent (02:46)
Mm-hmm.
Keanya (03:00)
to be able to deliver projects. So I will say that was in the forefront of my mind during the boot camp that I didn't, I wanted to learn how to develop, but I also wanted to actually be a technical project manager. And that's kind of the, yes, yes, that's what.
Carlton Gibson (03:17)
And that's where you're working now, right? As a project manager. So what appeals
to you from the project management side versus like, you know, being the grunt.
Keanya (03:26)
⁓ I...
So I had to make the leap from account management to project management because in account management the reason that was my career is I love developing relationships.
And I know it sounds cliche, but I am a problem solver. It probably doesn't sound cliche to you guys because you're developers. You like complex problems. You like to solve them. it is like seriously being the oldest of six children. I kind of like, you know, it's like I wrangled it. I think it's just in my personality. What the thing that
like most about the project management side of it is the technical project managers side of it is that you can that I am actually kind of like the I won't say the the middle man of the technical part and then the client and product and I like having that context being able to contact switch from okay. Yeah, I know it might take us three
three weeks to write this code to okay, you know what? Let me corral this particular developer because he's not he or she is not really filling this project those types of things It's a challenge, but I like that And you know one of the things that stood out
Carlton Gibson (04:53)
Yeah.
Will Vincent (04:58)
Well,
that's
Carlton Gibson (04:58)
I'm
always scared of speaking to the clients. always like, I like a good project manager who, you know, acts as that shield between me and the end.
Will Vincent (05:06)
Yeah, I was gonna say, it's a superpower
to not just enjoy it, but to do it, right? I mean, you probably suspected that before, but can feel it now, right? Like most developers have no desire to be project managers and are probably not great at it if they're put into that role. So to be open to it and to enjoy it and to fill in the technical thing is, that's a Venn diagram that's quite rare.
Keanya (05:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. um, as a...
My technical brain does not like to speak to clients, but when I put on my project manager hat, I am, okay, well, let's do this. It's like I have, I don't know if you can compare it to Beyonce. She says when she's on stage, she's Sasha Fierce. Yes, so when Kenya puts on her project management hat, she's like a Sasha Fierce.
Will Vincent (05:52)
Yeah, I've heard this. Yeah, even I've heard this.
Yeah, what was I? think a lot of I think a lot of like pop stars do that. was I? Sabrina Carpenter has like some name for her like alter ego because a few or maybe was taped. I think it was tape. No, Tate McCray. think it's like Tatiana. My daughter's all into her because yes, you can be shy and introverted. I don't know if Beyonce is, but yeah, adopt different personas depending on the context.
Keanya (06:08)
Yeah. ⁓ yeah.
Yeah.
Yes. yeah.
Yes, it's 100 % that's me. Like I'm like, I'm not gonna, you know, if I was ever in a meeting with Carlton and Will at TalknTech and I would not be, you know, raising my hand to, you know, can I say this? No. But however, if you had a project that was kind of on the verge of running over budget or time, then I'm your girl.
Will Vincent (06:36)
no.
Ha ha
ha!
Keanya (06:47)
I'm gonna I am going to speak up loud and clear and we're gonna get it done
Will Vincent (06:55)
Well, think, mean, Carlton's a good example of this, but I think, you know, the the elder figures in the Django community all are not just humble, but they're they're very open about what they do and don't know. I don't see a lot of. Bragging in the way that some tech communities not all do, so I think it's very welcoming to, you know, hear Carlton, Jacob Kaplan Moss, all these people just say, I don't know, you know, to, you know, of course they could.
Keanya (07:16)
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (07:19)
As I've realized, and I'm sure you have too, the correct mindset is, well, I don't know, but of course I could figure it out, right? Because nobody can keep all of this in our head, right? That's sort of the challenge though, in a way, is I feel like some domains, you can kind of have a mental model of what you're doing, but coding is just so fractal that it's just impossible. It's more like you eventually have a mental map and you're like, I'm gonna dive in and spend the time to learn how to do that thing, but I don't have to beat myself up because I can't remember.
Keanya (07:26)
Yes. ⁓
Will Vincent (07:47)
anything in the moment.
Keanya (07:48)
Yeah, whatever
syntax, right? I used to beat myself up in the beginning when I was learning, when I was Googling, oh, wait, what is the Git workflow again for the 230th time?
Will Vincent (08:00)
I still,
I still, I still Google it. mean, I still find that I will ask a question and, ⁓ find something I wrote because I phrased it, you know, just like that. And I'm God like, ⁓ man, like, you know, five years ago, me was, he had something going on.
Keanya (08:06)
You
You
Uh-huh,
uh-huh. And it's so weird that you say that, Will, because I remember, I think it was at PyCon, when I first met you, I was carrying your book around.
Will Vincent (08:28)
well, I wrote, mean, the book, the first edition. ⁓ was it? Yeah. Professionals.
Carlton Gibson (08:28)
Did you his sign?
Keanya (08:30)
Yes, jangle for purpose.
Yes, Django for professionals.
Yeah, because I was at, it was PyCon I think last year and I was actually doing some work too and a couple of chapters were helping, it helped me to figure some things out and it was just so funny that you were at the, I think I forget what sponsor it was or you were at the booth and somebody was like, called you Will Vips and I was like, Sam Will Vips? I was like, I have your book.
Will Vincent (08:49)
wow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Keanya (09:03)
And that just speaks to the accessibility too of the Django community because here it is, I'm in some office, home office in Chicago, you know, ⁓ fighting for my life trying to figure this code out referencing your book.
Will Vincent (09:14)
Mm-hmm.
Keanya (09:20)
And then three months later, I'm at a PyCon and you are the person who wrote the book and I have your book in there. It's just, you can't make this up. I was like, my God, and I have never met you, so.
Will Vincent (09:32)
Well, and I had that with with Carlton,
the very first DjangoCon I ever went to. I gave a talk on APIs and Carlton was in the audience. And, you know, to me, he was like Django fellow, Django was framerate co-maintainer and came up to me after the talk, said some nice things, you know, gently corrected one or two things I said wrong. And. ⁓ Well, no, you did. I mean, you know, I think it was more syntactical than. Anyways.
Carlton Gibson (09:52)
Don't buy Coru.
Will Vincent (09:59)
did it in a very kind way, right? so, yeah, I think, you know, so that's the model I have of like people are accessible, but also remembering like I was the same way. I I learned how to code as an adult. I didn't have a boot camp. It was literally me in a room for two years, ⁓ pre-LLM, getting scared to put something on Stack Overflow and get lit up, you know. So, ⁓ yeah, I've sort of carried that. Anyway, so I was just, you you telling your story, I think it's hard for
Keanya (10:20)
Yes.
Will Vincent (10:27)
Unless you've done it, it's hard to realize it takes a lot of courage to do a boot camp, to put yourself in a beginner position as an adult, right? When you're running projects and all of a sudden, you know, interviewing people and now you're interviewing for a individual contributor role, it takes, you know, I think it's good for your soul, but it's, it's a, yeah, it changes your perspective, right? To do that as an adult. A lot of people, think, rightfully go, Ooh, I don't want, I don't want to put myself in that position because it's uncomfortable for sure.
Keanya (10:42)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely, it is. then I also, I think about my experience and, know, from, you know, I would say prior career life to now. And I kind of, you know, think about how other folks get to from point A to point B. And I really do feel lucky, blessed, because the folks that I've met along the way have been so gentle.
so just engaging, interesting, friendly, a joy to be around. And I just, I want that for everybody. And not just in coding and learning how to program and technical, just period. in the work, like if you have to work, you know, because who wants to work? But if you have to, you know, why not have it be this type of environment? And that, I've also, because I've heard horror stories and I'm
like, my God, I just think about if that had been me, I don't think I could have continued. So I really feel the need, a strong need to pay it forward because, you know, it has been a joy and I know it's not always the case for everyone. So whatever little thing that I could do in my little corner of the Internet, I am trying to do that. Whatever I can do to pay it forward and help the next, you know, ⁓
Jango Nod, Techie, whatever you want to call it, you know, a person who is changing careers later in life, know, minorities who don't think, who don't feel seen or underrepresented people who don't feel seen, whatever I can do because you're right, I have that perspective and it's just, yeah, something. It's huge.
Carlton Gibson (12:52)
Caktus is a nice place to land on your feet at,
Keanya (12:54)
Yes, is. ⁓ So when I got the full-time permanent position, it was amazing because I really thought that, you know, they had an onboarding program. And I thought, you know, I'm going to learn a lot and then I'm going to be thrown into the wolves to try to find a job. But there were so many folks that ⁓ took the time to pair program. ⁓
you
show me the ropes, just be human. I guess it is. I hate when the bar is that low, but they are beautiful folks like Tobias, the founders, Tobias and Colin. They are so accessible. They are so much fun to work with. In my experience, I don't know if folks are out there that don't have that experience with them, but it's a fun place to work. It was a nice place to land.
I said very blessed and I just assumed that it will be a fellowship, but I'm here. That was in 2022. I'm still here. ⁓ And we're still doing, still liking my job, still loving the, I was going to say go into the office, but no, we don't have to go into the office. We do, we do two or three times a year. Yes. it's, yes.
Will Vincent (14:15)
They have a nice office though. mean, think we, yeah, the sprints for DjangoCon
Carlton Gibson (14:17)
You can, if you want.
Will Vincent (14:22)
23 and 24 were there and it's like, well, you could get some work done in here. Yeah.
Keanya (14:24)
Yes, amazing office. Yeah, we
do, we do an office week. We try to do it quarterly. Like I'll be in Durham probably January or early February.
for a week and we ⁓ I do feel like I've had remote jobs before even before programming and I feel more connected to the people the folks that I work for or work with I'm sorry at Caktus even more so than folks that I work went into the office every day like there's a there's something there like we we feel connected so
Carlton Gibson (15:05)
there any things you do
particularly as a team to stay connected remotely? Getting together every so often ⁓ is an obvious one, but ⁓ in the day to day are there things that really work, really help you?
Keanya (15:14)
Yes.
⁓ I will say, I mean, I guess our stand-ups, we try to not overthink. And with our meetings and stand-ups and ⁓ ceremonies and stuff like that, we try to make it.
meaningful. So a lot of times we have ⁓ specific meetings for specific things and I think the culture has been, since I've been here, has been open and honest. So I don't really feel like folks are afraid to speak up and you know have conversations where I just feel like when you have honest conversations ⁓ that it
fosters, it just fosters a deeper connection. So it's not just a ton of surface conversations like, know, we are definitely digging into because it's a smaller team now. So we have to always say we have to stay efficient because
We don't have a lot ⁓ of human resource, so to speak. We have tons of tech, software, whatever. But the people, we have to make sure that we nurture the folks, the people, because that's what's making this train stay on the track, in my opinion. So yeah, there's, yes, yes.
Carlton Gibson (16:46)
It's the limited thing, the expensive thing, the thing that makes it work.
Keanya (16:52)
Uh-huh, absolutely. So I think that, you know, we try to check in with each other. ⁓ I can sense when folks are ⁓ overwhelmed or...
you know, might need a little something like that's just the instinct that I have. Not patting myself on the back, it's just that I have that, you know, that thing. Yeah. And that's the thing I, uh huh. And I think too, because, you know, we have some quite a few seniors on the team now. So I think sometimes they get bogged down in because they're so brilliant. And I, I, I'm like, you know, come on.
Will Vincent (17:14)
Not everyone has it in tech. I can say that with love.
Keanya (17:34)
Let's step back now. Let's talk about the human side. Yes. that is ⁓ a way that we try to stay connected. But definitely when we have our in-office events, we come in the office. We're in that office.
Will Vincent (17:37)
Let's see the forest not get lost in the trees. Yeah, it happens.
Keanya (17:55)
that week working with each other. It's always funny the first day. It's like so quiet. You can hear a pin drop. And it's like, when I work, if I'm writing code, I have to have my house music on. And I have to have background. And then I always talk to my dog. Like, Graham is my coworker. So it's so weird that when I'm in the office, because it's just a different environment, I'm like, OK, can I turn this music on?
or is it gonna bother someone? That's always funny. Yeah, yeah, and I'm like, I'm not by myself.
Carlton Gibson (18:27)
It's when you get up and have to have a little dance, that's the worry.
Will Vincent (18:33)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, that
definitely happens. Yeah. You're like, no, social graces. What are these? I mean, I for a long time, would, my wife could tell if I'd been like stuck on something for a while, cause I would have like coating hair, cause I would sit there just like this. And so I'd come out with like this wall of hair and she's like, you've been like, you know, stuck on something for a while. I was like, ⁓ I guess I have a tell.
Keanya (18:39)
Yes. It's funny.
You
Yes.
Will Vincent (19:01)
Like the wall haircut.
Keanya (19:03)
The folks who are in our lives, you know, like my husband if he hears me say yes in my office he'll be like, she must have figured something out because I every every little thing even to this day like if i'm writing code if I if I grab a couple of tickets because you know, I still I always told I think i've told tabias or collin before like I am still gonna pick up some low hanging fruit tickets because I didn't stress myself out for like two years
learning how to code not to code again. So I'm always like you know so whenever I you know I'm figuring something out and he hears yes he'll be like she wants to figure something out you know.
Will Vincent (19:36)
Right up.
Well, did you find I found this when learning to code? Cause I had come from, guess, kind of managing, I was working in tech, but I was managing a team doing operations and business stuff. And so you don't, ⁓ you don't get like the dopamine hit of fixing a PR or fixing something and making it work. Right. Whereas learning how to code. Yeah. There's long periods of frustration, but like, you do get that like, yeah. Like I, I did something, you know? And I mean, you're doing something when you're managing a team, obviously, but it's a different kind of thing. It's a, it's less of a.
Keanya (20:08)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (20:14)
spike of, you know, ⁓ done onto the next, right? It's more of like, yeah, you know, keeping everyone happy. ⁓ so anyways, that was really a nice feeling having come from a couple of years of managing to then, yeah, just like, ⁓ I did this. Like I got that. And, yeah, it's in it. I just saying that cause you, I'm sure you could relate to that feeling too. That was one of the things that was sort of surprising. And I think that people who come from
Keanya (20:18)
yeah. yeah. Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (20:41)
maybe an engineering background and then promoted into management, they go, my God, like I don't feel good because I don't get that feeling of completion that I had, right, when I was rolling my sleeves up and doing it.
Keanya (20:53)
yeah, absolutely. ⁓
Carlton Gibson (20:55)
You gotta keep your hand in this
one. You can't just rust away.
Will Vincent (21:00)
Yeah,
you want to keep going to stay a little stay a little sharp
Keanya (21:04)
absolutely.
I just picked up a ticket, I think a couple of weeks ago, and during stand up, I was asking for ⁓ someone to review my PR, and I think it was Colin, he just, right in the stand up, he went to it, I was like, excuse me, don't look at my code in front of everybody. And then he was like, no, it looks good, and I was like, my God, thank God.
Will Vincent (21:32)
Yeah.
Keanya (21:32)
But that was
the first time he ever did that he was like, why are you? It's fine. But those types of things, because it's like, no, I just want you to look at it. Don't share it until like, no. But it was funny because that actually happened. I think it was yesterday or the day.
Friday and you know just to quickly ⁓ review my PR right in our stand-up I was like I had to clutch my pearls I was like my goodness yeah
Carlton Gibson (21:59)
you
Will Vincent (22:01)
Yeah, it's sort of intimate to look at the code in front of other people.
Carlton Gibson (22:06)
You're not gonna look at my drawing? No, no, no, no.
Keanya (22:08)
Yes, but it was fine. But those types of things, you know. And that goes back to, for me, with Caktus because, you know, I've never felt... ⁓
You know, every now and then I do, I still have imposter syndrome. But one of the things that helps me, I have to say, is the place that I work. ⁓ Tobias and Collin have both shared with me that, ⁓ I love working with you, KDia, because you are, it's a new.
you ⁓ bring newer ways at looking at things and they remember when they were learning, like you said, you remember. Exactly. When we did DjangoCon Europe, Tobias and I, ⁓ did a talk on pair programming. At the time, I was pair programming with the founder of the company and I was still junior.
Will Vincent (22:48)
Yeah, scarred, yeah.
Keanya (23:08)
But it worked for us. He's my favorite person to pair program with. Some people are like, really? Like he's a senior engineer. I mean, know Tobias, know Colin. But they are my favorite folks to pair program with because I learn so much. It's fun because it's always something like, you know, if we're doing a live share or we're working and I'll ask a question and Colin was good with this. I'd be like, well, do you think
you know, XYZ, which is it he was like, well, I don't know, let's try it out. And I'm like, really, we could do that?
Will Vincent (23:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the thing
like they're they're learning too, right? mean because I mean, ⁓ carlson I both have you know Even I have mentored people which is weird to say there's the imposter syndrome, you know And it's it's like they're kind of like my god, like you're doing something with me i'm like no like you you have interesting ideas like honestly like and it's one person in particular I i've mentored for a while and Eventually, we kind of stopped because it got to the point where I was like, I don't know like you're asking good questions We're just gonna both go
Keanya (23:50)
Yes!
You
Will Vincent (24:13)
You know, she got into that she got in the reps to, you know, kind of approach it like a senior person, which is to say, okay, I have this tapestry of kind of understanding. But yeah, I don't, know, it's you just get better at figuring stuff out. It's not that you know how to do a particular thing. Or, you know, again, the questions like it's it's I still find it so interesting when people write, you know, ask good questions, right? You know, or ask any question, right? If it comes from a place of like, they're they're curious and they don't quite get it.
Keanya (24:36)
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (24:40)
You know, maybe it's something I've heard before, but sometimes it's a new angle on something and I have to reconsider, oh, maybe I could explain that thing better. Or maybe they have a real insight. Like, why do people do it that way? It's like, oh, it's ingrained that we just do it that way, but maybe there is a better way to do it. So I guess I would just say in pair programming situations, the senior person gets something out of it too, if you're the junior person. Like, don't think they're just doing it for you. They're definitely getting something from it too.
Keanya (24:57)
Mm-hmm
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yes, they definitely. Mm-hmm.
Carlton Gibson (25:08)
as well. I think that like this exact this
phenomenon, I think is ⁓ just what it is to be programming, right? You come to any problem, it's like, how are you going to solve it? Well, okay, you might know that, if you've done it, that kind of problem, you might know, well, we're to use this, we're to use that, but the actual details of it every single time you're working it out. And that's, that's the fun of it. So it's not like, you know,
I'm working with a junior, the junior doesn't know and I do. It's like we've got to discover the solution together.
Will Vincent (25:39)
Well, then that's the thing.
think that's, that's, that's the kind of like the major point I've tried to get across to people is like, this is what it feels like, you know, cause when I was learning, I was like, I wonder what it feels like to be Carlton Gibson, you know, like, or, you know, and it's in a sense, it's that feeling of like, okay, I have some understanding, but I don't know. Like I'm just constantly learning stuff and learning that it's okay to not know things and approach it with an open mind. Again, like the strongest developers I've ever seen.
Keanya (25:47)
You
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (26:05)
are the most quick to say, I don't know, but also like, let's go check it out. You know, right? Like somebody who, again, acts all braggy, which is pretty rare in Django, but it still happens in some communities. It's just such an obvious insecurity I can say and see now, right? But when you're younger, you're like, my God, like, you know, it's scary, but it shouldn't be. That's not the attitude of a pro.
Keanya (26:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yep. No.
And it was it has been, you know, quite fulfilling when, you know, a Tobias or a Colin is like, I don't know, let's do this. Like, let's try it out. Like when I ask him, we don't know. Let's see. And it's just so refreshing. Like, OK, but won't that break the code? Like they're like, we can fix. They're like, we can fix it if it breaks. It's just cold. And they say it's just cold. And they're like, I would have never.
Will Vincent (26:49)
Yeah, it's just code, yeah.
Keanya (26:54)
thought that way. So it's so refreshing to be, you know, to see professionals, especially professionals further on in their career who are
You know, they're doing big things to work aside, work side by side with them and they have that attitude. It's amazing because I don't know how many times it's like, let's see, let's try to, let's see what Stack Overflow or let's Google or now, you know, let's ⁓ see what the LLMs say. A lot of times the LLMs are wrong, but it's all.
Will Vincent (27:31)
Okay, we've made it.
Carlton Gibson (27:32)
Hard Stack Overflow
Keanya (27:33)
It's always, it's always, yeah,
Carlton Gibson (27:33)
is wrong, man.
Keanya (27:35)
it's always fun. Like we, it's so many side quests. Like you, if you're working with, like I don't pair with another developer and then.
Will Vincent (27:40)
Yeah.
Keanya (27:47)
We laugh at the responses that we get. Or the solutions is like, what? Colin will put something in Slack and be like, or even Tobias, this is what I got. And we laugh at it. It's like, what? What's happening? But it is what it is. AI, guess, is aim of the future. I don't know. Is it?
Will Vincent (28:09)
All right,
Well, we've made it 30
minutes, so I can ask, I can say something about AI and I didn't bring it up for a change, but I'm just curious, what is kind of the workflow that I guess Caktus or you are seeing? Like is there one to the extent that you use AI and LLMs, have you all narrowed down on ⁓ a tool set, a flow at all?
Keanya (28:31)
mean, it's in the early stages. I will say that ⁓ I think back when Tobias and I did Django Europe, DjangoCon Europe, ⁓
Co-pilot was all the rage for peer programming and I wasn't impressed. He wasn't impressed because you know, my assessment was it's okay if you are, ⁓ if you know how to code, you know, if you know.
If you know how to you know the syntax, you know the languages it's okay. It's it that's what it's used for to pair program to help you. But I feel like it was being marketed in the beginning marketed to okay, you know what? You don't really have to know anything. Boom. Vibe coding. I believe it was the beginning of vibe coding. And I had mentioned to Tobias, I don't think it's a good idea for junior folks or folks. It may be a senior.
⁓ Fast forward, like we do use some AI tools more so I think the notebooks we like. like ⁓ yeah the Gemini notebooks for research and for PM work I'm not gonna lie I like to use anything that ⁓
helps helps me to work more effectively and a little to reduce my busy work so I might ⁓
I might use the polish my emails or some of the things like, if if I decide that I want to create a newsletter or some type of marketing thing and I'm not the best in Canva or those types of software, I liked I'll pop into their AI, you know, their agent and see if I can get some nuggets to help out where I have, you know, where I have some gaps.
and knowledge, using it that way. But the whole, you can just, you could just, ⁓ one day I'm gonna just pick up my computer and I'm going to create an app and I don't know anything about coding. I'm gonna vibe code an app. No, and then I'm not, some of the things, we found, yesterday we found, ⁓
some something that was a little strange we we think it's an ai a i made website kind of mirroring Caktus
So we were doing some research and we found this website and we're like, what is this? And it looks like, you know, it could have been created by AI. None of the folks on the website were real. We don't think we looked it up. And it was just really like, just, it's just, you know, trying to research and looking through stuff, different AI models. it's just.
It's weird to me. I'm not gonna, I'm not poo-pooing AI. But I personally, where I am more passionate in AI about is just the... ⁓
the bias, the bias in AI. So what I'm noticing more so, you know, in the greater scheme of things is it's easier to be very biased.
Will Vincent (32:06)
Mm-hmm.
Keanya (32:17)
politically correct, but I want to say, know, racist, discriminatory, ⁓ just perpetuating stereotypes through AI. That to me is what I've been more focused on lately and noticing and that concerns me because what do how do we fix it? It's hard enough to get humans
to come to the table and be and recognize okay I do have some bias I do you know it's hard enough for that but how how are we going to go up against these computers now too it that that's the thing I won't say it's keeping me up at night but it's definitely on my mind yes
Will Vincent (33:03)
Well, and it's the same thing. mean, early days of Google, I was just reading something about AI and something else talking about bias. And this won't shock you, but it shocked me that for the longest time, if you typed in black women into Google, the top result was not what it should have been because. You know, so, yes, the combination of the data itself and then clearly there was no way to Google in a position of authority who was looking at that or cared about it. And so I.
It's still, yeah. The philosopher would say humans are all the same, Carleton, right? It's just things are amplified in different ways.
Carlton Gibson (33:35)
Well, these things
are trained on the entire corpus of the internet. And if you crawl around the entire corpus of the internet, it's pretty racist. It's pretty sexist. It's pretty discriminatory. It's pretty, you know, full of nut job beliefs. And well, no wonder they come out from the average machine, right? The average machine will spout back what it was trained on. And yeah, it's, it's, it is concerning. ⁓ I don't, you know, and of course, yeah, the
Will Vincent (34:01)
Well, in these days, Reddit is like the new Wikipedia. mean, and I say that not totally joking. mean, Carlton, I had this, right? We had this side comment where, yeah, it was your son, right? We were sharing Reddit links and you...
Carlton Gibson (34:12)
Well, my son was defending,
my son was defending the use of Reddit as a primary source. And I was like, really? And he's like, no, it's the only thing that's reliable. Everything else is unreliable.
Will Vincent (34:17)
in a paper.
And I gotta say, the more
I'm, the more hopefully educated I am, the more I'm like, you know, Reddit compared to like the New York Times, the Washington Post, like not to mention, I mean, I'm like, well, at least, I don't know, it's not so bad. It doesn't seem so bad compared to like, you know, anyways, we don't need to go in that direction, but yeah.
Keanya (34:38)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not gonna fight
you on that because I'm a Reddit. I'm sorry, I'm a Reddit pervert girl, so yeah.
Will Vincent (34:49)
Yeah.
⁓ I did want to, okay. 38 minutes in. How did you, well, yeah, I was going to say, so, ⁓ to be solo chair. mean, that's, ⁓ how did you get roped into doing it? Cause I attended, I attended and it was a great experience, but I can only imagine how much learning there was, how much work it was. ⁓ and you've written a blog post we'll link to, right. The first in a three-part series on, ⁓ behind the curtain. So I'll just.
Carlton Gibson (34:53)
We should talk about Django.
Keanya (35:10)
So.
Yes. Yes.
Will Vincent (35:17)
mention
those, there's a link to that.
Keanya (35:18)
⁓ so how did that happen? So after the first I attended Django con, Durham both years and I was, I was an organizer and I think that I, just
As a hee hee hee funny I should submit a quote to bring a proposal to bring Django Khan to Chicago and so Peter He's like you should and I'm like really? Okay. Well, maybe I was like you think I could do it He was like Keena you could do anything. I'm like, are you just saying that because you want a proposal like I So I started they I took the weekend a mullet over pulled together a couple of other folks and said let's do this so
Will Vincent (35:45)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Carlton Gibson (35:58)
Yeah.
Keanya (36:06)
So
⁓ I went to work, boots on the ground, getting ⁓ quotes, proposals for hotels and who could support. I think it took me about six weeks to kind of pull something together, submitted the proposal and ⁓ Daphna reached out and they were interested and it took another couple of months before I locked it down because the change
Will Vincent (36:35)
Mm.
Keanya (36:37)
community and Daphna I will say it's a little bit persnickety so there are a lot of things to work out a lot of things to hash out and so finally you know we signed the contract and I think Tobias and Colin were at lunch with Peter and he mentioned do you think Kenya might want a chair you know and they said oh no I Kenya yes she they asked if she would you think she would be a good one they were like
Will Vincent (36:50)
Yeah.
Keanya (37:05)
Absolutely. He asked ⁓ and I said, yeah, I could do that. I think I could do it. And so ⁓ in the meetings, we started our bi-weekly, then it turns to weekly organizing meetings and I learned a lot. I learned a lot. It's...
Will Vincent (37:24)
Well, it's project management
in a way, right? I mean, so...
Keanya (37:26)
Yes, it
is 100 % project management and with such a human element to it because of the nature of DjangoCon and how we are ⁓ crafting experiences. We want folks to feel included. We want folks to feel heard. So it's not just your average kind of conference. It's that human.
that empathetic, the empathy element at DjangoCon. So that was the one thing and I was like, I have to make sure that that is not, you know, ignored during, you know, when I was chairing. That was my whole main thing that the empathy portion of it. So, but it was, yeah, that's how, and then I'm gonna also be the chair for 2026. So, yeah, yeah.
Will Vincent (38:19)
Yeah, yeah, because it's a two year, ⁓ generally a two
year. And I do want to say, so it's Peter Grandstaff, right, ⁓ from T-Rock Software. I know we get a little insular here, but I want to give a shout out because Peter did huge amounts of work for the Django cons in Enduro.
Keanya (38:25)
Yes, yes, yes. Uh-huh, yes.
Yes, yes, yes. is so generous with his time. ⁓
know, supporting anything that he can do. He's a good teacher. Yeah. And then, yeah, Peter is awesome. Peter is awesome. It's a lot of work. So we will start our, I think our ⁓ monthly meeting for organizing in about February. And then, you know, we just start filling each other out. But then it gets around, ⁓ you know, I think June.
Will Vincent (38:59)
Mm-hmm.
Keanya (39:07)
Maybe May, May, June, starts, yeah, it starts getting, it starts ramping up and folks start pulling their hair out. Yeah, yes.
Will Vincent (39:07)
Sorry.
Because it's so many things, right? It's I mean, there's just the
financial side of like putting a lot of money down to reserve these places. And then there's the website, the the talks, you know, reviewing. mean, that's the least of it. The catering like every program. Yeah, it's. ⁓
Keanya (39:20)
Mm-hmm. yeah
The programming, yes, everything, yeah, yes.
And
then all doing all of that while still maintaining the feel of the conference. People have an expectation when they're coming to DjangoCon. The folks have been to quite a few. They have that expectation that this is gonna be a top tier experience and you wanna make sure that you deliver on that every time.
Will Vincent (39:59)
You can feel it. You can feel it. mean,
even even compared to a PyCon and that's not just the size and it's taking nothing away from PyCons, which have tons of volunteers as well. But yeah, Django cons are special. I think it comes through. I mean, I was Django Django con the Django con US in 2018 in San Diego, where I met Carlton. That was my first ever tech conference like ever, ever like I had. And so I'm totally anchored.
Keanya (40:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Will Vincent (40:27)
On that experience, you know ⁓ Overwhelmingly good but also I didn't know anyone, you know, like I'd written these books, but I was just like alone and You know, like I didn't know anyone I knew no one right and so I remember you know it like meal times and everything I was just kind of like You know like right so that's also ingrained in me when I see people who are
Keanya (40:28)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (40:51)
who are newer, like, yeah, like that was exactly me. Right. Like I had no idea about anything. Right. And it was so welcoming, you know, and it's meant to be, it can be because the size also is conducive to that. Whereas, you know, then the next year I went to a PyCon, which was in Cleveland in 2019 and it was like three, 4,000 people and you couldn't possibly recreate that even if you had all the other elements, right. It's just too massive. Um, so yeah, anyways, people haven't been to one, you can feel it.
Keanya (40:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I agree. I agree. Yes.
Will Vincent (41:18)
And this is kind of where it
comes from. It's the blood, sweat, and tears of a...
Keanya (41:22)
Absolutely, DjangoCon
⁓ Durham, I can't remember what year, that was my first ever tech conference.
Will Vincent (41:31)
Yeah, 23 probably, 23, 24.
Keanya (41:31)
and it was yeah it was 2023
2023 was and it was awesome because I it was some my I thought I would be intimidated like my whole thought process of what a tech conference is you're thinking oh all of these you know geniuses brilliant folks writing this calls yeah everybody like you know and then one year I got to actually sit on a panel with Carlton I was like imagine that um but
Will Vincent (41:53)
All these Carlton's, yeah.
Carlton Gibson (41:57)
Yeah.
Keanya (42:01)
Yeah, I was like, ⁓ it was, so I'm spoiled. I always say that DjangoCon spoiled me because since in my career, I have been to other tech conferences. I won't name names, but they're nothing like nothing at all. It's a different.
Carlton Gibson (42:01)
you
Yeah.
Keanya (42:18)
people is a different vibe, it's a different everything. So it's like, ⁓ you know, you go to these and then you want to run back to DjangoCon. It's like a warm blanket. I was like, ⁓ it's like, that was it. Yeah. Okay. I want to go to DjangoCon now.
Carlton Gibson (42:34)
Yeah, no, that's exactly it.
Will Vincent (42:34)
Yeah. Well,
and I think Chicago, ⁓ I know that this from the organizer side, Chicago is kind of perfectly placed in that it's international airport. It's not quite as expensive as, you know, Boston, New York, San Francisco. ⁓ it's also people want to go there, right? It's a, it's a huge city, right? So that's, so it checks a lot of boxes. I, I'm well, you would know, I think more people, despite everything went to Chicago than made it to Durham, I believe. Right.
Keanya (42:46)
Yes. Yes.
huh. That's what we heard. w- yes. Mm-hmm.
think there was, so we thought because of the climate, the political climate that we would see. ⁓
see it drop, that we would see participation drop ⁓ for visas and stuff like that. But I was told at the end, yeah, it was successful. was, if you want to measure success and, you know, folks come in a small profit or whatever, you know, but yeah, people like Chicago. And the thing about it too is I am, born and raised in Chicago and I still live in, ⁓ okay, like.
Will Vincent (43:33)
I was born there too. Evanston
Hospital. Yeah, we moved when I was four though, so I don't really have any memories.
Keanya (43:42)
10 minutes away from Evanston. I'm on the north side, but yeah, I love Evanston. ⁓ But yeah, am born and raised Chicago and I love Chicago. So basically, I had to make sure that folks had what they needed. If you need me to create some type of experience in Chicago, I wanted to do it for everybody.
Will Vincent (43:44)
Okay, yeah.
Keanya (44:11)
literally like you know ⁓ absolutely yes yes yes
Will Vincent (44:12)
And the timing's perfect, right? Like the weather in September, I mean, it was like 70 most days, not a lot of wind, not a lot of cold. Um,
it's such a striking city. mean, at night, right? It feels almost like, I dunno, like Blade Runner or something, right? Walking along. Like I have all these photos cause there's this huge, massive, um, skyscrapers in the river and yeah. And then the weather was just perfect. Like it was, which is not always in Chicago. We can say that.
Keanya (44:29)
Yeah, yes, the river or yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. no,
it is like, yeah. yeah. Cause it's like 20 below zero now, but.
Will Vincent (44:42)
But in the fall, it's pretty nice.
Keanya (44:47)
And so I think Peter and or a couple of folks are like we should do it. ⁓ They were like, let's push it out. They think it was an October date. I was like, absolutely not. We need to stay in this particular time because you know, yeah, September is good. August might be too hot. September is the sweet spot. You want to, you know, let's not mess around with Mother Nature because she can be very moody in Chicago.
Will Vincent (44:59)
Yeah. September is good.
Carlton Gibson (45:14)
win.
Keanya (45:17)
go. She really could. Yes.
Will Vincent (45:19)
Yeah, no, the weather was perfect. It was perfect, as
I say, last year, this year. God, it was only ⁓ two months ago, three months ago, feels like three months ago.
Keanya (45:24)
Yeah. Yeah, it seems like last year, doesn't
it?
Carlton Gibson (45:29)
If you
recover, Jack, you're
Will Vincent (45:31)
Yes, have you been able, as a chair, you able to, I mean, obviously you can't fully recover, but you do get a little bit of ⁓ build up the reserves for the next time.
Keanya (45:31)
Have to recover.
Yes. It...
It did take me a couple of months to kind of like... ⁓
or, you know, emotionally, mentally, physically to kind of like, okay, I'm back. All right. So I'm good. I'll be at my fighting weight. I like to say when we start again in the beginning of 2026, I'll be good. It energizes me. I really, the fact that it's Django kind, I love the people, I love the community. You know, Django, obviously that's where I shine at.
Will Vincent (45:54)
Yeah.
Keanya (46:17)
in code and programming and development. So there's that. And then to introduce people that I like to my city is amazing. I had so many side quests during DjangoCon. Folks I had just met then, were like, you want to go do this in Chicago? Sure. ⁓ I felt like I wanted to be a personal host to everybody. And because of the size of DjangoCon, I was
able to do that. I was very, I felt good to do that.
Will Vincent (46:53)
Yeah.
Well, it's also, think when visitors come to your city, you're yeah, you see it through their eyes. Like, oh yeah, like I, I've never done that or, I haven't done that for years. Like I should go, you know, it's the same way with like I'm here in Boston. Like I'm technically, I'm just outside of Boston. There's so many things I just wouldn't do because I've done them once, you know, like, and then someone comes into town, like Carlton came to visit at one point and I was like, oh, you know, like we can, there's like all this cool stuff we could do that I ha yeah, I haven't done in forever either, but.
Keanya (47:01)
Yeah. huh.
You're weird.
Will Vincent (47:22)
to see it through your eyes, I would totally do it.
Keanya (47:24)
yeah.
yeah, Pete Fawkes was like, let's go to the Bean. I'm like, ⁓ I can't remember the last time I went to the Bean. we were, the Bean, it's like the big bean that it's a landmark or, I hadn't been, it's a huge draw. And it was so funny because they were like, how do we get to the Bean, Kim? I was like, I don't know, I just live here. ⁓ I don't know how to get to the Bean. And so, but it's a tourist destination. Folks want to take photos.
Will Vincent (47:30)
Wait, what's the bean?
⁓
Yeah.
⁓
Keanya (47:54)
up a ton of photos Bartek took a ton of beautiful photos there but it's yeah yeah yes
Will Vincent (47:58)
he does such, yeah. like cloud gate. yeah. Yeah. The being cloud gate. You know what I,
yeah, where the heck is, know, I didn't make it to that. I just, we'll put a link. Well, I'll have to make it next fall. ⁓ man. You know, and I didn't even, I didn't even make it to the, ⁓ the art museum, which I was, ⁓ I know, cause I, I made it to the water every morning and then I just didn't make it. And, cause my parents used to, you know, as one does, they take.
Keanya (48:11)
Absolutely. I mean...
Will Vincent (48:26)
take the train and they worked right near there and my mom used to go there during her lunch breaks to like de-stress from her corporate jobs. She would just go and stare at the art for like 20 minutes and that was like her routine. So I was like, I'm going to do some of that and then I didn't make it.
Keanya (48:27)
Yeah.
yeah.
Yeah, you have to.
See, I mean, and folks are always like, you remember that the art museum in that movie with Ferris Bueller? I'm like, yeah, it's right down there. OK. Like, you can go to the art museum. Yes.
Will Vincent (48:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, Chicago. mean, Chicago
is legit and amazing city and especially in September, it shows its best side and I'm going to try to build in a little more time next year because I sort of in and out. ⁓ And hopefully I won't give a 45 minute talk. I'll do a shorter one. I'll do a talk. I'm going to do I have a talk. I got to talk.
Keanya (48:58)
huh.
Yes.
I hope you do.
Well, I mean, hopefully you as the chair, hopefully
you will do a 45. But as a host to Chicago, I hope that you, yes, of course, because we.
Will Vincent (49:18)
dear.
Yeah. Well, we'll see.
can say here, I'm scheming. I already have submitted for, I think, yeah, just closed for PyCon US, ⁓ a talk on ⁓ Python web development, modern Python web development. So I want to touch upon Django, but also FastAPI. But more just do kind of a high level, this is what's the same. ⁓ This is what's maybe a little bit different. Because I find it so easy to get lost in the specifics of like this pet list.
Keanya (49:31)
yeah.
Nice.
Will Vincent (49:49)
AWS this, Heroku, whatever that, but like 80, 90 % of it is the same. so ⁓ I would have, anyway, it's a common, constant common question that beginners have, or people who just, like most people, think most people don't do deployments very often is the thing, right? Cause if you're in a company, it's like someone set it up and you just do it. Or if you're a newcomer, know, so it's like, it's not done enough to, ⁓
Keanya (49:56)
Okay.
Will Vincent (50:16)
Warrant the attention that it deserves. We're just talking about deployment Carlton I'm saying my talk topic for next year's gonna be around deployments And I think it's a combination of like senior people don't have to touch it because it's already built up from scratch And then beginners get overwhelmed with the platform Differences when most of it is kind of the same anyways, I have opinions So I'm just gonna put that's my talk What we'll see we'll see the shorter the shorter the long version. I'm thinking the short version
Keanya (50:39)
well that sounds very interesting. ⁓ huh.
Will Vincent (50:43)
But, unlike, unlike this past year where I gave this AI talk, which was super fun to do, but I didn't know really anything about what it was going to be. And I had like three new repos and I definitely over did it a little bit. So, ⁓ I, maybe I could do 45 minutes on a topic I know about sorta.
Keanya (50:55)
Yeah, I was.
Mm-hmm. I was thinking about doing a talk too, but I was like, well my Can I pull that off with being you know the chair and giving a talk because I really do
My thought is to do a talk around, you know, the bias and AI. But I don't know what that looks like. And I don't know if I'll have the energy, the stamina to do it. So I'm gonna probably ruminate over that during Christmas break. know, I might, I'm gonna think about it a little more. You know, if I'm gonna do, it would be nice to do a talk.
Will Vincent (51:15)
Yeah.
I think you should do it. mean,
one of my colleagues at JetBrains, Michelle Frost, she's on the AI front and she's gives lots of talks and that's what she's all about. It's kind of bias and inclusion, exclusion and these things. think it's, yeah, it's very relevant because a lot of people don't think about it, but as soon as you mention it, they go, yeah. ⁓ yeah, that's a thing. But then, this is how that has repercussions that impact everyone regardless of
Keanya (51:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that's important. Like not just, yeah.
Will Vincent (52:01)
who you are. ⁓ So either you're living with it every day
and you're like, yeah, or even if you're not, you're like, ⁓ huh, yes, that should be elevated a little bit in importance.
Keanya (52:10)
Mm-hmm that that's the thing
Yes, that's the thing because I want folks because it doesn't you you don't know how Detrimental is it is if it doesn't affect you and then what it looks like, you know, you know now I'm not trying to you know, divide anything the races or anything like that. It's just it needs to be
Will Vincent (52:39)
needs to be pointed out.
Keanya (52:39)
I think folks need
to be, yeah, and it needs to be pointed out, it needs to be intentional too. I wanted to just folks to kind of just take a pause and look. I'm not asking, no, we gotta get rid of AI, but let's think this through, Yeah. yeah, that's a good idea too. Yeah. ⁓
Will Vincent (52:56)
Yeah, it could be a panel too if you ⁓ don't want to have to do the slides.
I mean, a panel of people who could speak to it. Just throwing ideas out there.
Keanya (53:08)
That's a really good idea.
Will Vincent (53:08)
mean, JetBrains is doing ⁓ a Python event in March, and there's going be a pilot in Amsterdam. There's going be a PyLadies panel. And this cracks me up. In the interest of diversity, I'm going to chair it, because it's all women. I'm like, wow, I can be the diversity person? Let's go. But they're going to talk about various topics. And yeah, it's nothing better than people who
Keanya (53:26)
⁓ god.
Will Vincent (53:32)
It was another option other than a talk, but that would be yeah. know Carlton. We were just discussing things while you took a brief sojourn.
Keanya (53:34)
Mm-hmm.
Cool, cool.
Carlton Gibson (53:39)
Yeah, no one my
electricity fluctuated, the internet went down and it took a while to come back and I was like, no, maybe it's not coming back. But it did come back. So, you know, I'm glad you held the fort while I was away.
Will Vincent (53:51)
Yeah, well, we're coming up on time. We've asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything you wanted to mention or we should have asked you about? ⁓
Keanya (53:59)
this there?
Will Vincent (54:03)
We're looking forward to your blog post, so we'll put a link to it. So the first one was being chair, and then think the next one is about being an attendee to chair. Is that right?
Keanya (54:05)
good. Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. And then, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And so, like I said, there were a lot of ideas and quotes and thoughts and things. So I'm like, ⁓ this blog is turning into a small novel. I need to pare this down. Yeah.
Will Vincent (54:14)
That's something only a few people can write about.
Three-part it.
Yeah,
and it's on the, we should give a shout out on the Caktus blog, which has other authors as well, and there's a lot of good stuff on there. So.
Keanya (54:41)
Absolutely, yes, we
do a lot of blogging. Actually, if you, folks are interested, you can see kind of our, ⁓ our
you would call it, what we're doing lately, our blueprint. I think Colin is working on some LLMs and he's blogging about that.
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. yeah, folks need to check out our blogs. I know that every now and then we get like I might see a post on LinkedIn and somebody is talking about a blog that either a colleague from Caktus or Tobias or Colin wrote six or seven years ago. And they're always so surprised that people are still referring to their blogs from six, seven years or 10 years ago. They're always so surprised.
Will Vincent (55:30)
Yeah. I
mean, a lot of stuff is a lot more evergreen than you think.
Keanya (55:35)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And it always tickles me. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Vincent (55:38)
Yeah, I would.
Well, and if
people don't know, Carlton, you have the stack report. You have your own regular writings. In fact, I'm the only one who's not writing these days on of the three of us. got to fix that.
Carlton Gibson (55:48)
Yay.
You need to get back to
it Will, you need to, you know.
Keanya (55:53)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Will Vincent (55:54)
I know, but I'm enjoying your writings too, Carlton, which some are free and some are paid. So speaking of which, you have one
should be coming out, right? You're due a monthly.
Carlton Gibson (56:02)
Yeah,
one to finish the end of the year.
Keanya (56:04)
Yes, I like your writing, Carlton. makes, it's just, I'm like, I understand what this guy is saying and it makes me feel so good that I understand what you're saying. I'm like, yes, yes. my God, I'm always like just stoked that I'm like, wait a minute, I know what he's talking about. Yay.
Will Vincent (56:18)
Well, it shouldn't be confusing. Like, if it's confusing, it's poorly explained, right?
Carlton Gibson (56:20)
you
you're making me
blush now. I'm glad you enjoyed.
Keanya (56:33)
I'm sorry,
but it's so true. It really is. I think I had the same sentiment to you too. Well, your books were easy. I have my Python books. And when I was learning how to code, and then when I got your first, I think it was Django for API. I think I bought that first. But I was like, oh my god, I should have got this a year ago. Because it answered a lot of questions. It was like, it's so.
Like, okay, yes, I understand this concept. I understand the syntax. yes, it's all, whenever I'm reading stuff that is just clear to me, you have no idea. It's just so amazing. Because there's so much stuff out there that looks like, know, Greek, no pun intended. It looks like Greek to me. I'm like, I don't know. So.
Will Vincent (57:22)
Well, and if you find
a voice that you resonate with, right, it's like, now I can trust this person. Right. And that's what I keep like everything I do. like, if I found this confusing, someone else will. And maybe I'm not the best person to explain it to them, but some people will find it interesting. And same thing, right? Like I read everything Carlton does, like you find a person. ⁓ and I do think, I mean, among content creators, there's definitely a little bit of an E or this guy is falling. Everything's being commoditized by AI thing, but
Keanya (57:27)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Will Vincent (57:49)
I think at the same time, actually having trust and a voice is more important and valuable than ever. You know, okay, how do you reach people? like, you can, you can tell if you're trying to do something like you can, like you read Carlton stuff, AI is not going to write that even if, I've tried, even if I like give it all Carlton's writing and tell it to, to write like Carlton, like it's not going to write like Carlton, but even if it did, I don't trust it. And I trust Carlton, you know? So.
Keanya (58:11)
Mm-mm.
Alright.
Exactly, exactly,
exactly. Yeah, the context and the trust still lives within humans. And that's the thing that I hold on to, regardless. There might be some AI that's helping me do my busy work, but that human connection, you can't teach a computer empathy and accountability. I mean, yeah, not ever.
Will Vincent (58:17)
I think, yeah, well.
So trust.
Right.
Mmm, not yet. Yeah
Keanya (58:45)
It won't happen
Will Vincent (58:48)
Not an LLM, not an LLM.
You could do a little filter, little empathy filter, slide it.
Carlton Gibson (58:52)
We're a
second episode now on the...
Keanya (58:55)
Yeah, a little
empathy saying, aw. Yeah, teach him that.
Will Vincent (58:59)
I well, let's not go down that rabbit hole Carlton.
Is there anything you wanted to to add as we wrap up?
Carlton Gibson (59:07)
I mean, I feel I've missed a bit the exciting middle bit there, but no, I think it's been a good chat I think we haven't got anything left on my my list. Are we doing a project in a book or?
Will Vincent (59:17)
Yeah, just gotten lax here. So we didn't mention this at all to you, but we've informally done trying to mention a project in a book. don't have a, actually I do have a project. well, no, I don't have a project. have a book. And again, I apologies. We didn't even mention this in the notes or anything, unless you have one I'm going to stump for, I'll go first. ⁓ this book until the end of time by Brian green. I need to buy, I'm going to, I'm going to give this to you and
Carlton Gibson (59:29)
I've got a project. ⁓
Will Vincent (59:42)
March when I see you Carlton because so Brian Green is this theoretical physicist. He's written a bunch of other books. This is really like a philosophy book. This is sort of a and I don't want to make this sound boring, but it's sort of like a older person just being like, why does anything kind of exist? And it's really hard to do justice to how much I loved this book. And I've I've well, you can't see I've marked up so much stuff. It's it's a combination of like
Remembering like how physics and chemistry and biology and math all are just shades of the same thing and he's clearly grappling with just being kind of an older person thinking about mortality. ⁓ It's just a beautiful beautiful book of a Eminent theoretical physicist just thinking deep thoughts and I don't know how he made it interesting. I'll be honest, but it's so good. ⁓ I mean and he just makes these like offhand
Keanya (1:00:29)
Yeah, that's intriguing. ⁓
Will Vincent (1:00:34)
Just about how chemistry is just, you know, like the periodic table is just like, well, it's just like an extra, ⁓ God, I'm get it wrong. know, electron here or there. And I don't know. He just has these like, there's so much good stuff in the book. ⁓ it came out a couple years ago. I think it's sold. Okay. But I think it Carlton, I've been telling you about this book for awhile, right?
Carlton Gibson (1:00:52)
You
have, you have, when you picked it up I was like, that's the one Wilkies 10 feet of read.
Will Vincent (1:00:56)
Yeah, yeah, Anyways, until the end of time, highly recommend. Carlton, do you have one? God, okay, go for it.
Carlton Gibson (1:01:01)
Okay, so I've got a project and a book. you know, I did
the homework. So the project I'm going to recommend is called Django cron task, which is from, um, Johannes Moran, who goes by the name coding Joe. You should go to his, um, should go to his get hub. He's got several projects, Django pictures and S3 file upload, which is a nice little widget. Um, he, maintains the Django select to integration, but this is like a cron style schedule for the new Django tasks framework. So if you need periodic tasks or scheduled tasks, um, and you want to use new Django tasks.
Then you've got this add-on which gives you the scheduled task which aren't part of the core package now. So that's my project. I think that's a really nice addition.
Will Vincent (1:01:42)
So Django crontab, you said? No, what is it? Say it to me again. Task crontab, crontab's different, okay.
Carlton Gibson (1:01:44)
No, hang on. Yeah, Krone tasks, Django Krone tasks. Yeah, I put it
in the chat there for you. But check out, go click through to his other projects. He's ⁓ been a member of the Django community for a long time and he's got some other really good projects that are really worth checking out. So that's my project for the week. And then for a book, I'm going to recommend this one, which is ⁓ new from Manning. It's 2025.
Will Vincent (1:01:52)
⁓ thank you.
Carlton Gibson (1:02:12)
fresh out it's called just use Postgres and ⁓ it's about all the things that Postgres can do.
Will Vincent (1:02:17)
He actually reads these
books. Like he actually reads these like soup. Like, I know I aspire. I'm not quite. Go ahead. It's an inspiration.
Carlton Gibson (1:02:24)
Wait, I keep getting told
I'm going to be made unemployed by these LLMs that know more than me. So I've just got to keep reading. I've got to learn faster than the LLMs. But it talks about, it's got the first section on the foundations of SQL, things like window expression, or common table expressions, window expressions, recursive queries, et cetera, indexes, all those things that perhaps you think you should know, but then maybe don't. But then it goes on to JSON fields, full text search, extensions.
Will Vincent (1:02:31)
Okay, sorry.
Carlton Gibson (1:02:52)
using Postgres for generative AI, time series, geospatial data.
Will Vincent (1:02:56)
Can you hold it up one more
time? Just use, okay, I just want to, right. It just came out, right? It just came out last month.
Carlton Gibson (1:03:00)
And it's from man, right? Yeah, it's fresh
off the press. It's only been out like, you know, so it's bang up today. And it's like, you know, if you're, if you're using Django, then you're almost certainly using Postgres. And there's these advanced Postgres features that you've kind of heard of, but you're not a hundred percent sure how you work, how they work. It's a great book. I really, really, really recommend you get it, stick it on your desk, flick through it every so often. Yeah, that's my book.
Will Vincent (1:03:27)
I'm looking
over. still have some other books you recommended that I bought that I haven't read. But as you've said, buying it is 90 % of it, right?
Carlton Gibson (1:03:31)
Well, you don't have to read them, you buy them,
you look at them, and then occasionally you flick through them when you feel guilty.
Will Vincent (1:03:39)
Yeah.
Well, so no pressure unless you already had something prepared because we didn't mention this at all to you.
Keanya (1:03:45)
I don't have anything prepared other than ⁓ as far as projects, if folks want to submit a proposal to bring DjangoCon to their city in 2027, 2028, the CFP is still open, ⁓ that would be amazing. We're still looking for cities to represent. So that's a thing.
Will Vincent (1:03:56)
Yes.
Carlton Gibson (1:03:56)
Good one.
Will Vincent (1:04:10)
And they could come to Chicago and talk to you
and others and get a first-hand guide to...
Keanya (1:04:13)
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Yes, yes. And also too, I am going to be at the PG Data Conference in 2026. It's also gonna be in Chicago. It's taking place June 4th through the 5th. Proposals, CFPs are open.
That's something that I am, Caktus is actually a sponsor and I sponsor that. ⁓ that's just a project. yeah. If you like, if, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So if you like data, you know, we like data. So, you know, that'd be a fun little conference for folks to attend.
Will Vincent (1:04:44)
link to that.
posted by Prairie Postgres. Is that like the Midwest Postgres chapter? Nice.
All right.
Keanya (1:05:03)
I don't have any, I'm not reading anything lately. ⁓ Which is weird, I had just talked to my husband too. I was like, I need a book. It's been at least eight, nine months since I read something. ⁓ But I don't know, I don't know.
Will Vincent (1:05:08)
I
Carlton, go on then. You're
always reading fiction too. How do you, what do you?
Carlton Gibson (1:05:23)
⁓ I'm
reading some terrible, well not terrible, they're wonderful actually. A fantasy novel by a guy called Joe Abercrombie. So he wrote a trilogy called the First Law trilogy and this is the second one in a follow-up trilogy whose name I'm sure it has, but Joe Abercrombie, he's worth it.
Keanya (1:05:26)
You
Will Vincent (1:05:27)
print.
Keanya (1:05:31)
⁓
Okay.
I was
thinking about doing the, because I'm into Welcome to Derry, ⁓ Stephen King. ⁓ Yeah, so the show, but obviously he has a ton of books and stuff. I'm like, and I'm not, I love Stephen King. I really, really like Stephen King. And I'm like, maybe I should go back and read some of, because I've read so many of his books. But I just finished up the Welcome to Derry series.
Will Vincent (1:05:48)
What's that? ⁓ OK, yeah.
Carlton Gibson (1:05:49)
Yeah.
But he's one of your favorites.
Will Vincent (1:06:10)
You know,
if you go to google.com and type in welcome to Dairy, there's a really cool little custom thing. There's like a little red balloon that pops up on the screen, which I've never seen before. On Google, on Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the search results, it's like, That was kind of cool. I was like, ugh.
Keanya (1:06:11)
race.
is it?
Carlton Gibson (1:06:17)
break.
Keanya (1:06:19)
yeah. Frightening. Yes, frightening. Yes. And
yeah, I just feel it. Yeah, it was a really good ⁓ series. And I was impressed. Stephen King doesn't disappoint, but sometimes folks don't get his works like when they... ⁓
Switch it over to like the big screen or movies like his books are amazing to me like but They're doing a good job, but welcome to dairy. Love it Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes
Carlton Gibson (1:06:48)
Thank you.
Okay, I'm gonna check that out.
Will Vincent (1:06:55)
check that out. Well, we could keep chatting, but I think we're at time now. ⁓
Thank you for coming on. Thank you for being a chair. Thank you for being part of our community, right? Because it's, I'll say this, like Carlton, I feel like we've been waiting for the new wave to come in for a while now. And, you know, your tip of the spear of this new wave that's bringing new perspective, new energy, like everything. it's
Really wonderful to see.
Keanya (1:07:24)
I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been so much fun chatting with you two. I love what you do. I appreciate being included in this group, this Motley crew, I like to call. I love it. I love it. ⁓ I'm always looking out for your works. ⁓ I appreciate everything you do. Thank you so much.
Will Vincent (1:07:39)
Yeah, yeah, very.
Carlton Gibson (1:07:40)
Yeah, I'll go home
on it.
Will Vincent (1:07:52)
So djangochat.com and on YouTube and we'll see everyone in 2026. Bye bye.