Kojo Idrissa is the current DEFNA North American Ambassador, a DjangoCon US organizer, and a prolific speaker at Django/Python conferences.
Will Vincent 0:06
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Django chat. In this episode, we're joined by Kojo Idrissa to talk about his multiple roles in the Python Django communities. I'm Will Vincent, I'm joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello, and Coco. Welcome to the show.
Kojo Idrissa 0:18
Hello, everybody. Thank you for having me.
Will Vincent 0:20
Yeah, we're thrilled to have you on. Thank you for coming on. Where to start? I, I would start with, I think anyone who goes to regular Python or Django conferences in person knows who you are, you're a very big presence on that scene. But I don't know how much that translates to everyone else. So I hope in this show, we can talk about all the work you do and for the community, and highlight some of those things. But maybe I'll just start with something fun that I found, which is that you and I both have MBAs, which is unusual. And we both got into Python in 2012. Which is, is that correct? Yeah.
Kojo Idrissa 0:55
Yeah, I think that's when I sort of first got decided to become more serious about becoming Python, I first dabbled with Python. I can't even remember it probably in 1998. Like python 1.52. That's the first time I really saw Oh, wow, I started started to play with it. But as, as you said, We both have MBAs before I got my MBA, I had a degree in accounting. And so as an accountant, I didn't need to be able to write code. And so it was something I played with a little bit here and there, but it was 2012 when I decided to be more serious about learning, becoming a better developer and trying to make a career change. So
Carlton Gibson 1:28
can I ask that that's really interesting, like the diff the jump from business to programming because his it's almost like stereotypically people jump from programming into bismuth business or management or something like that. So I could ask both of you What, what's the motivation to jump into programming? What's the motivation for that great career?
Kojo Idrissa 1:47
So I will say from myself, I think some of it was, I just had an interest in programming for a long time. I didn't interest in writing code. Somebody also was just recognizing my own personality traits. I am interested in building things I'm interested in, I've tend to have a forward looking personality. And working mostly primary I work primarily as an accountant. I've also worked as a university instructor working as an accountant, a lot of what I was doing was financial accounting. And so I that's where sort of backwards looking at like, okay, let's look at what happened last month. Or let's look at what happened last year, that kind of thing. And that just didn't really fit, I was more interested in looking forward. And so it was a combination of those things. And then also, some of it was the accounting work, especially in my last accounting job. You've had a lot of data to work with, and they're things that can be automated and can be improved. And so, you know, there was a sort of a convenient testbed there as far as things to work with. So
Will Vincent 2:45
and you started, sorry, just you started by using Python to automate a number of your spreadsheets. Right? Was that one of the first on the job? Or, you know, at work projects that you use Python?
Kojo Idrissa 2:56
Yeah, yeah. So one of the one of the early projects that I did was, there was a manual task involving Excel that involve, you know, making pivot table, then a lot of filter, copy, paste, filter, copy, paste, and then spend about eight or nine hours doing doing that. And I was like, well, this is dumb. And at that point, this was maybe mid 2013. At that point, I learned enough Python that I know, okay, if I could, I could just get my hands on the data, I can make this go faster, and just started installing development stuff on my laptop. And then Okay, so here now, I'll add a disclaimer that there are choices that I make that may or may not be right for everyone based on your risk profile. The decision I made was, I'm going to start writing code until I get cotton fired. And so I was super worried about that happening because like if someone came in, quote, unquote, caught me, it wasn't as if I was like writing a game or something. I was actually trying to automate the production of a monthly report, you know, that we used it work and make that faster. But you never know how people will respond to the company. So that's just sort of the approach that I took as far as having a project to work on. And I eventually ended up just quitting that job because the company was having all sorts of problems. And going on to try to focus on becoming a professional developer.
Carlton Gibson 4:08
That's super, it's like the perfect story of like, development and automation and what program is all about? And one for me, I will I'm always like everyone should program everyone should programming. I was like, we don't need professional programs. I don't know. You don't need to write compilers. But almost every job out there you can do things where you're automating,
Kojo Idrissa 4:28
actually, so I'm, I'm keynoting pi Gotham in October. And that sort of thinking that you the talk I'm giving this sort of touches on that touches on it's called the Python spectrum. And it touches on the fact that there's a range of people who will use Python, some of them will be in one end of the spectrum, I have the software engineer who sort of what we think of as the stereotypical professional programmer. And at the other end of the spectrum, is what I call a programmer, which is someone who writes code to solve their own problems, but they might not need all the tools that the software engineer uses, but also The people and then there's a wide range there in between but all those people using Python to solve a problem, so
Will Vincent 5:05
So you mentioned pi Gautham. How do you attend so many conferences? Because you were at every conference I can think of, and then some What, what? You have been doing that for forever? I think that since 2017, can you talk about how you do that? Why you do that? Okay, so
Kojo Idrissa 5:22
yeah, I'll start with the why for us too, because the house is just, I'm, I am probably a cautionary tale, and you shouldn't be like me. The Why is when I became more serious, more actively involved in the Python community. This is again, maybe around 2013, I decided that I wanted to be able to make a contribution in some way. And as someone who didn't have like a CS background, and not a lot of experienced programming, I knew it wasn't going to be a contribution by writing all the wicked code, you know, from day one. So I felt I could make a contribution by helping to grow the community and more specifically by trying to grow the number of contributors in the community and so much So the talks that I've given have had that as an underlying theme, I haven't always done the best job of bringing that to the surface. But that's sort of the idea. So the first conference talk, I gave the first talk at a local meetup. And the first conference talk I gave it was in 2013. And it was around that project that I built to automate that spreadsheet task at my last accounting job. And the idea there was, if you want to grow contributors in the Python community, the people that it's you've got a larger group to choose from, you can either try to convert existing programmers or use a some other language to Python programmers and how you try to get them to contribute. Or you can try non programmers into programmers and try to get those people to contribute the non programmer population much larger than the existing programmer population. And the existing programmer population already has their own, you know, predilections and they already like Java or C sharp, or whatever they're using. And so the idea of that talk was one me talking about this project that I built, but also to pointing out that people who weren't programmers Could be inspired to join the Python community because Python could actually benefit them. Maybe you can demonstrate why, you know, lots of people have to deal with spreadsheets. And so if you can demonstrate, here's a way, here's something that you can use to make your life easier, you're more inclined to try to use Python. And then that leads you into, to wanting to potentially contribute. And so that's been the ongoing theme. And even in the talk that I give at pi Gotham, the idea is that to have contributors to the Python community, you need the two requirements. One, somebody who uses Python to solve problems for themselves, so they see some value in it. And then to those people have to feel like they're actually members of the community because without those two things, no one's going to spend their time or effort to make contributions. So that's sort of a long winded version of an answer to the why question. Why do I do all this? And that's why I became a Gen Con organizer why I joined the board of death before while why I became I created and became the desna North American ambassador Why created the orientation thing at Django con us? All those, all those things tie back to that common thread of wanting to grow the number of contributors in the community. So a certain amount of focus on inclusion there because you if you're trying to grow contributors in the community, you want to draw from as many segments of the population as possible. That only happens if we actually have an inclusive, you know, community culture. So those are all sort of the whys. The house are basically the Y has caused me to sort of optimize my life around trying to do something. So I became I'm going to all these conferences here recently say some since 2017 or so because when I ran for the board of definite definitely is the Django events foundation with America. And I think you'll I've talked about them before on the podcast. That's the nonprofit that puts on Django con us. When I ran for the definite board, I guess, essentially my platform was to focus on the NA the North American that And trying to make sure I tried to get more involvement from the non us portions of North America, initially Canada and Mexico but also the Caribbean. And so, in that row, I made myself that the definite North American ambassador to try to build community across North America, initially, primarily to let people know that was Django con us It can happen in any North American city. And people I don't know that people are aware of that. And so as I would submit, talk to different conferences, I would also speak to the conference organizers and let them know Well, hey, in a few years, when, you know, we know what Django is going to be for these next few years, but after that, it could be in any North American city. So at pi, Tennessee, hey, Nashville, you know, it could be here at you know, at pi Gotham, you could be a pi, Ohio Hey, Columbus could be here, pi Caribbean, it could be in you know, anywhere North America, it could be there. So that was sort of the motivation behind becoming the North American ambassador and then doing all the travel
The again back to that idea of credit, create more contribute to the community, the How is just I just sort of make it happen. I'm yeah, I'm using a lot of vacation days in like, so I call it I call it nor MGT. And I use the hashtag sometimes on Twitter, the North American grand tour is what I'm sort of doing. But it is almost entirely self funded. And so, you know, it's just a matter of me sort of, using vacation days using some coffee, I'm able to use conferences and a few limited spots, but for the most part, it's just me using my vacation days and, and you know, and footing the bill for the traveling accommodation myself. So just trying to go to as many places as I can, and trying to sort of maximize coverage as it were, because there's certain parts of North America that don't, that aren't as involved aren't always as included. And so I've spoken to pack Caribbean twice. I spoke to Python in Mexico. I'll almost definitely be going to pocket the first pike on let him in in August. I mean, just sort of trying to do that. But then I've also gotten a little carried away and I've been to other continents, I'm supposed to be focusing on North America. But it's sort of a it's morphed from me being the I think the initial intention was for me to be the ambassador from definite to North America. But at some point, I have become the ambassador from North America to the rest of the world. So, yeah, so I'm gonna have to try to dial that back a little bit. Because, you know, there are there are limits to you know, time in money into energy. So, kind of balance out all that.
Carlton Gibson 11:24
Well, energy is important. So you must, I mean, I find going to a conference really hard work, you know, like, it's fine. It's, it's fantastic, but it's, it's draining. So, you're doing that in your vacation. So I you know, I always think when I get back, I need a couple of days off to recover and rebuild my energy, but you've got your back.
Kojo Idrissa 11:42
It's directly back to work. I think when I came back from high, I spoke at pike on Australia last year. And so, yeah, I got a direct flight from Sydney back to Houston with the 16 hour flight 16 hour time difference. So I got on the plane like Wednesday morning at nine landed in Houston Wednesday morning at 930. And then just drove in the airport to work. And so yeah, so so that's been a thing at times. Yeah. And so just sort of having to manage my energy and try to be a little more cognizant of things. Like I literally think about England a few. A few hours ago, I had to, you know, let one conference know that I wasn't going to be able to attend just because of the way the scheduling was going to work out. You know, I'd be traveling almost every week or every other week for like, a two month period and just, you know, between, you know, money and personal resources and energy, you know, there's only so much that you can do so.
Will Vincent 12:32
Wow. Yeah, I remember to I maybe since you've been to so many conferences, I noticed. So I've only been to two real conferences in my life. One was Django con last year and the other was pi con this year. And I found that high con was way more overwhelming.
Kojo Idrissa 12:48
Yeah, in PI con this year, and I've had this conversation with multiple people. I just had this conversation with a friend a week or so ago. Pi con 2019. For some reason seemed like it was a little more chaotic or overwhelming, not chaotic as far as unorganized. But just like there was more going on the pike on 2018, the same venue, same place. But I talked to a number of people and we all sort of had the same experience of, oh, like, I didn't really get to see as many people I would see the person, I would see people that I knew, but they were like, way over there. And there were a lot of people in between us. Were in the same venue with roughly the same number of people in 2018. That didn't seem to be the case. So there's a lot happening. Go back on.
Will Vincent 13:28
Yeah, well, I have icons. Yeah. Five times the size. And I mean, the venue actually, Cleveland's unbelievable because the hotel is right there. Everything is right. Right there. Yeah. But I think Yeah, I just I just curious about your experience. I mean, I think partly to I spoke at Django con. So I was, I was in and out and I was also very wrapped up in my talk. Whereas at pi con i, I didn't have a talk. So I was sort of what do I What do I do? You know, I almost felt felt like if I wasn't having a meal with someone new every time I wasn't quite Yeah, making the most of it. Yeah. But for for you, though, I mean, you're often you're often speaking, right? So you're in a very public facing role. You're not really there just to soak it all up at this point.
Kojo Idrissa 14:12
Yeah, it's, it varies a little bit. So let's see. So Python, I've never actually spoken to Python. I did. Last year, I gave I led an open space. And then in 2017, I believe I give a lightning talk. But I've never actually given like, you know, a full on pi con talk at most of the other conferences I go to, I'm giving a talk. And that's it makes it a lot easier to justify the expense if I'm actually giving a talk. And then doing some of the community building stuff, but then a Django con. I have multiple other three chairs for Django con, and almost all of them are public facing things. And so that's just sort of a thing. But yeah, me pi con is, is much bigger than almost anything else, you know, you would most people would go to and so it can be a lot. There's a lot going on there.
Will Vincent 14:58
So we've talked about Python and Django sort of interchangeably? How did you I'm always curious since especially since was somewhat recently, how did you? How did you learn Django? What was that process? like for you? I imagine you. I mean, I remember what it was like, for you What was that process, like as an adult learning Django.
Kojo Idrissa 15:15
So for me, it still sort of an ongoing process. I'm actually really trying to spend more time working on Django. I don't do as much Django as I'd like. I tell people, I'm much better at organizing Django con than I am it you know, building things in Django. And so that's I'm trying to sort of balance that out a little bit. But I think I really started with the with the Django girls tutorial, I'm trying to remember like, what inspired me, I think it was just, it was more a matter of, I knew I presented I submitted to talk to Django con and I was going to be speaking there, and I just wanted to be more familiar with it. So that's one of the things I did. And I ended up being a Django girls coach. And now I'm trying to work on some other projects, to just familiarize myself with Django more. And so it's been it's been sort of an on and off right since I spend more time using this Regular Python than I do with Django. But I know that I know it's an area that where I want to improve. So
Will Vincent 16:04
I feel like I'm the opposite. I mean, Carlton like you to weigh in. I mean, I feel like I'm, I'm pretty comfortable with Django, but the amount of pure Python that I do is actually not. Well, it doesn't feel like that much. I think it is because I just use the same things over and over again. But, you know, to the extent I have expanded learning time, there's a lot of things I want to build with Python. Plus, you're especially around async, whereas I'm sort of, I'm within the Django world most of the time. So I guess there's always that feeling as a developer, there's something else I should be learning, you know, so, I have that with with pure Python, I would say actually,
Carlton Gibson 16:37
but that's the Life Project, right? programming is a life project. And that's what's so nice about it is, you know, if you if you're the kind of person that finds the, that logical challenge of programming, foreign and you can cope with the fact that computers are really particular. Then, you know, there's always the new framework, the new language, the new and it's, there's never any it's like, it's brilliant. It's the gotten that you just keep picking?
Will Vincent 17:02
Well, and I think also everyone, you know, everyone learns and everyone teaches differently, which is why I love asking that question because I find that however my mind works, almost none of the existing things match my mind for how I think about, you know, things in Django and how I would teach it, which is why, you know, if I thought that someone had already done the canonical job on a subject to fit my brain, I would do it, but my brain is how it is. And that's why I always tell people, sometimes other developers will say, Oh, I'm working on a Django thing and feel like I'm, I would be worried about that. And I think, no, like, everyone should write and teach because everyone learns differently. And there's not one style for everyone. But for me, it's it's like, it's sort of that learning cycle maybe I'm a little more negative about Carlton I just feel like I'm like, I know what I want to do. Why I want to do it. And then once I figure it out, I'm almost kind of angry that it took me so long to get there right? Like I have a long list of all these things. I'm like, I want future me. It's like Calvin Hobbes, future me to do this and tell me how to do it because I know that there is an elegant solution and I We'll find it. And that'll be bored with it. But sometimes I'm like, I just, I just want it which which, you know kowtow to your point, like, I came to I kinda programming. It's a tool for me. Like, I wouldn't just code for fun, like, I play music for fun, but I wouldn't code for fun. Yes, very much, Carlton looks hurt. You know, it's very
Carlton Gibson 18:20
well known, like, you've got to have something you actually want to be doing programming cones, but you've got something you want to build, what
Will Vincent 18:29
problem is what you know, as a teacher, I always start with a context, you know, so because the the standard CS programming things that engineers love to do, which I envy, you know, output numbers from one to 100, make a pyramid, all these things. I don't care. I just doesn't feel like it doesn't connect with me at all.
Kojo Idrissa 18:47
I'm similar in that, in that I think that's one of the reasons that one of the things that drew me to Django and one of the reasons I am wanting to improve my abilities as a torque to build web applications, because I think if you're trying To show people or demonstrate the usefulness of programming, yes, there's things you can do with just sort of standard Python scripts. But if you build a web application of some sort, even like a blog or something, even something that's simple that just like, you know, a Django thing that just says, Hello World. If you get that deployed somewhere, then like, you can show you know, the person who built that can show it to their friends to their families, like look, I made a thing, and it exists in the real world, as opposed to like, hey, let me bring you my laptop and open this virtual environment and show you how the script runs. It's like, Hey, you know, just go to you know, go to fancy Kojo dot Python anywhere calm and you'll see, you know, the fancy thing that I mean, because I'm fancy.
Will Vincent 19:38
Yeah. What's those aha moments? That's how I think of them as you just you need to have them you got to start with them saying we're gonna have one we'll get there. And then especially Yeah, the web is fantastic because you can share it and as you said, it's you know, people feel good coming out of whatever tutorial but then when they, I always tell people like, like, really share this link with some friends and family. And that's, I think, when it goes Wow, like, people, people can see what you've done and it makes me Real.
Kojo Idrissa 20:00
And I've actually I've actually in so I think you and I met will at Django con last year. And so I haven't gotten around to it. But I've managed to take a look at your books as far as because I'm always I spend as someone who's changed whose career changed. I spent a certain amount of time like I'm active on our pilot each chapter here. And then there's another female centric coding group here that I'm involved with. And so I ended up meeting in even at our standard Python meetup. I end up meeting a lot of people who are like learning to code for different reasons. I'm we're trying to create change. So I'm always looking at different materials as far as Okay, how can someone learn, you know, Python or Django and so in? I've heard good things about your books. And I know you've got them updated. Like for Python two, two point. NET Python Django, two dot one, I believe. I'm the only one
Will Vincent 20:43
out there. Okay.
Kojo Idrissa 20:44
Yeah. So there you go. And so in various, I keep meaning to take a look at your books, because it seems like you also get an interesting range of things. But from the question of how do you know how do people learn Django? There are a lot of different ways to go about it. So that's another resource. revaluate at some point because I get asked those sorts of questions. And you're so
Carlton Gibson 21:04
yeah, it come. And it comes back to what you were saying at the beginning culture about like, bringing in the beginners into the Python community. I think Django is a really good like the web is the tool. It's the publishing medium of now. And Django is a really great framework to for beginners and for well for everybody. But if we can really focus on spirit spreading that story, it just, it's a self fulfilling,
Kojo Idrissa 21:30
self serving. And so the talk I'm doing it, I got them. It's a it's interesting, I gave a version of that talk here in my local Python meetup. And it ended up being more contentious than I expected. Basically, software engineers kind of want everybody to do things the software engineering way and one of the reasons I gave that I gave that talk is because I've seen situations where it's so the the pipe the general Pathak, community culture seems to be heavily skewed towards software. nearing became the one true way of writing code. And I have definitions of sort of, what do I mean by software engineering? And what do I mean by programming? And, you know, I won't go into all the details. But basically, software and software engineering usually done in teams, it's usually a situation where the code is the final product. The people running the code aren't the people who wrote it. With programming, it's almost the exact opposite, almost always done by individuals. The person running the code is the person who wrote it. And no one really cares about the code, you care about the output. And so you've got different different use cases, different constraints. So all software engineers are programmers, but all programmers aren't talking engineers and don't need to be and don't aspire to be. And so that talking to it being a little bit contentious, but the sort of the undercurrent of that is that if we want more contributors in the community, we can't have the software engineers who are sort of seen as the authority figures and then more experienced people telling the programmers that they're doing it wrong because they don't you know, because they don't have a travel account, or because you know, they're Not using Docker, unless that programmer has a specific use case where it's like, Oh, you know what, here's this problem you're running into, you know, trapped, you know, having, you know, continuous integration would solve that or, you know, having you're using get would it would solve that or what have you. And so, again, trying to, to maximize the potential number of contributors, because it's an open source project Python and Django both both open source projects, and use we need as much help as we can. Russell Keith McGee gave an excellent keynote at pi con this year where he touched on that, me, he's spoken about the kind of thing a lot. And the idea of, you know, if there's money, I mean, yourself, Carlton is a Django fellow, one of the Django fellows, if there is funding available, you can pay people to work on these projects instead of having to rely entirely on volunteers. But even with that, people with who have skills, who have skills, you know, that we could pay them money to make use of those people have options. And so like, you know, you could get paid money to work on Python or Django Do I get paid money to work on some other thing? If every time I use Python or Django, the people in that community are like, hey, you're doing it wrong? Well, like, why am I gonna spend my time working on this, I can get paid the same amount of money to go work on something else where people aren't where people actually value what I'm doing and aren't telling me I'm wrong. And so it's what sort of wanting to try to try to bring up the idea of maximizing the range of contribution that we can get from this spectrum. Because, again, everyone doesn't have to be a software engineer. There are lots of people who use Python, that could potentially become contributors, but we have to make sure that we're including the people in our community discussions, and that we're not telling them wrong, because they're not, quote unquote, full fledged software engineer.
Carlton Gibson 24:39
Yeah, no, entirely. Oh, yeah.
Will Vincent 24:42
We agree. So something else I wanted to touch upon is, so Django itself is going through a change in core contributors. I know you've written about this, I'm wondering if you could share your your perspective on, you know, what's your take on where you'd like to see the Django core or what's what's thought of as core Call them moving forward.
Kojo Idrissa 25:01
Um, I mean, I've spoken about it a little bit, but I don't know that I have super strong feelings on it from the standpoint of I mean, definitely, I think innovate short sense, there's always going to be a very small percentage of people who are actually involved in, like building the core language and or the core framework and contributing to it. I mean, that's just sort of the reality of things. And the reality of open source. But again, trying to it's so no matter what you do it, there's always going to be a very small number of people who use Django, you know, compared to, you know, if you have like, the bottom number is the number of people who use Django the top number is the number of people who actually contribute to it, that top number is always going to be an infinitesimally small fraction of the bottom number. I think my concern is more being able to draw from a wider pool for that top number for that, that contributor number because that just gives you a number of different benefits from the stamp have different viewpoints, different coverage, you know, you've got a variety of, of thoughts and inputs and that sort of thing. So beyond sort of general thinking, I haven't given a whole lot of thought or attention to the changes of Django core, like, partially because I've been busy being the North American ambassador. And so, you know, I've been sort of like wandering the the the continent and slash planet, talking to people about about changing economy, you know, partially because I feel that like, if people in especially the least throughout North America are aware that Django con us could come to the North American city, then I think that increases some of the binders like Oh, wait, because for instance, that's not the case with Python, Python is big enough where you can only go to certain places, whereas with Django con, with Django con us, we want those cfps you know, once I get when that process is open, we want to hear that input from different people in different places. And as different local communities become more engaged if they realize hey, you know what, Django con us could come here, then I think that drives more engagement. And that sort of engagement and involvement will draw more people in whether it be to the conference or to contribute into Django itself.
Will Vincent 27:11
I imagine that similar Carlton in Europe, Django con Europe where there's also a desire, I mean, because it also does, or at least recently went two years in one place and then moves from there.
Carlton Gibson 27:22
No, Django con Europe has moved every year. Okay,
I think,
but yeah, that like this, like it, the issue is very much like trying to plan a year in advance two years in advance, okay. Where can Where can we host it and it's only 500 it's not even 500 people 350 people so it again, it could go anywhere. It's finding the team that wants to and I just thinking about what Kojo saying about getting contributors because it's something I've talked I've spoken about and beat the drum for widening the contributors. I think you're right, there will always be a small number. And we see more perhaps coming in We see fresh contributors, oh, that's exciting. But it's still, what I'm still not seeing as many non white males and white males are great. But there are lots of people in the Django community who don't fit that profile. And we don't see so many of those. Yeah, people contributing, and it'd be really nice. Even if it's only like one one, pull requests, want to pull requests, you know, one change to the dock one, one anything, like come and join in because people are welcome. And, you know, we try and be supportive and it's we still have barriers and to knock those down is it's kind of like if I it's the my tick, if I've got to take is I want to really help try and smooth out on ramp because historically, it's not a thing.
Kojo Idrissa 28:42
Yeah, exactly. And I think with the things that I do, I make an effort to try to help some of that on ramp one by so with the things that we do, like at Django con us specifically, you know, the orientation session is designed to sort of, you know, help create a more welcoming environment and then use that while you're At Django con, you can, you know, feel like you're more a part of the community and the other organizers also work very hard to have that. That inclusion culture at Django con us. The reality is some people, you know, are off put by some that some people want just like 100% purely hardcore technical, you know, super advanced Django, you know, tips and tricks. The reality is, and I've talked to people about submitting to Django con Django con is Django is three things. It is an open source web application framework written in Python. And so the open source part really means that it's a community driven thing, almost entirely volunteer driven. And so you have to take care of the community, so that the project can continue to live I think it was Jacob, Katherine moss who said in one of his talks, any community that's not tended to you this that, you know, you tend to to look after tends towards toxicity. And so there's a certain amount of effort that's required to maintain the quality of the community. In the community culture, and that means sometimes it conferences for open source projects, there are going to be talks about community and about things like burnout and mental health and that sort of thing, because members, that's how you keep the members of the community strong. And so, you know, so there's that, then there's also the idea of, you know, you know, trying to sort of share the idea that Django con us could come to a different city and just as you get more people involved, it draws in more people who could be potential contributors. And if you make that group, you know, not focusing just on like, you know, Sis, hetero white men between 25 and 45, then you get these different viewpoints and different insights that you might not have seen otherwise. And then that makes the software better. It makes it applicable to a wider range of situations and it just makes you know, the overall experience better so
Will Vincent 30:52
well. I think Django Khan this year is doing it. I like the structure where the three days of talks they have the first two days or I guess general talks in them Third day is advanced what used to be Django under the hood? That seems like a really nice structure of it because it does remove some confusion. And I mean, Carlton, yeah, you're speaking on the third day I'm speaking I think on the second day, because my talk is a little more beginner intermediate. That seems. Yeah, that's a nice structure for people to understand.
Kojo Idrissa 31:16
Yeah. And I think some of that comes from feedback we've gotten from folks as far as wanting, you know, some some of the more detailed advanced things. And the reality is, I'm this sort of bizarre outlier. I know a lot of it again, as someone who's been to a lot of conferences, I've spoken to a lot of people at conferences, and most people don't go to conferences, unless like their company is paying for it. I'm one of the few people that I know who just goes to conferences because I'm going to a conference or you know, I just submit to talk to conferences, just because, and so most people either won't go or can't go unless they're getting it paid for by the company. And then there needs to be some sort of business case. You know, you've had people who are entrepreneurs. Isn't that sort of thing who you know running their own one or 2% Django shopping so they want, you know, it sort of as much like meat for lack of a better term as they can get. And so in so something like this sort of, you know, Django under the hood ish day helps to fill that need.
Carlton Gibson 32:15
Also, I think that the, the point you you touched on previously was right, and we shouldn't like
we shouldn't
let us let them back us down on the point that the non technical talks are just as important because for instance, you know, I went to Django con Europe in Florence and there was a whole host of talks on cognitive bias and on diversity and inclusion in your design teams and how that makes the product better. And you're just like yeah, this is this is right you know, if you if you have a diversity hire, you actually check widen the perspective of your team which makes you capable of creating better software and any any business owner sitting in that audience who took that to heart would go home and have a make a better hiring decision and have a stronger Because of that, and their business would would profit. And I think, I think it's a tendency to to say, Oh, well, because they're not technical talks is not as much value in the conference. No, there's more value in the
Will Vincent 33:10
class, I think also technical talks, it's, it's easy to assume that something that's advanced is harder to do or provides more benefit when I often think they're actually a lot more narrow, in some ways, a lot easier to do. Because you, you don't have time to start up from the beginning, you just sort of parachute into an existing complex project that makes sense to you, the speaker and maybe a handful of people in the audience, but everyone else you've sort of lost whereas it seems Gen talks, I mean, Carlton, we first connected, you gave a talk on, you know, life as a programmer of a certain age, which we both are, you know, that's a timeless talk that's not going to get old, you know, that resonates more than, you know, some discrete, tiny technical issue and I think cojo your efforts and I hope this podcast as well shows that the you know, the Django The Python community is not just experts in their little shell, throwing exit stuff. I mean, there's some of that. But it's, it's people who really want to help. And having all these experiences and voices helps helps everyone understand what it's like because we all just trapped in our own head. I mean, for me, I've as an educator, one of the challenges I've had is that as my knowledge of Django has increased, I lose touch a little bit with what the true beginner mindset is like, because when I wrote my first book, I wasn't when I started writing it, I was a beginner. But I do that by doing dozens of like, literally dozens of emails every day. So that's sort of how I get that touchpoint and it just provides the empathy that helps any community it helps me be better at my job, I think helps anyone be good at their jobs a programmer because, for example, even an advanced person often just thinks, well, everyone knows x, y, Zed, or it doesn't. They just don't think that it's hard, because they've never experienced trying to show it to someone else. So if you think something's easy, try to teach it to someone like try to teach someone how to install Python on a Windows machine.
Kojo Idrissa 35:01
Yeah, I've noticed that with with programming in sort of your knowledge of Django or Python, it's very much like understanding a person's level with a spoken language, the idea of like, it's hard to know like, okay, like, so for instance, like I lived in China, a few nephews, I speak conversational Mandarin, but like, how much Mandarin do I speak? It's hard to communicate that to someone as far as like, you know, how much we calculate or what have what grammatical things do I know. And so once you get beyond sort of like, here's a talk for beginners who don't know Python, Okay, I'm gonna do an intermediate talk for people who know like some Python or some Django Yeah, well, but how much do they know? And what specific thing do they know? It's it's difficult. And so you have to make certain assumptions. And you know, and sort of decide what are you going to explain in detail versus what are you going to assume that the audience knows, and so that can be tricky.
Will Vincent 35:51
Well, we had Nicolas talati on who's very active in Python Django and he's working on a project called grades that it for schools, but also So sort of similar to the music curriculum, let's people say I'm a grade three and a grade five, which I because I agree, I think part of the problem is people just don't know what context to describe something to someone else. And for me, as an educator, I always, I always start from the beginning, work my way up, and I'll go faster, if it's a more advanced topic, but I feel it's a massive disservice not to go through all the steps, even if it's quickly going through it, because you just parachute in. And I can't follow a lot of tutorials. If someone just jumps in and says, Oh, we got a basic blog here. It's like, wow, there's so many different ways you could do that blog and so many things, that compound, you know, so, but you know, but it's a ton of work. I mean, it's, I speak from experience, it's a ton of work for me every single time I do a tutorial or something to just say, start from the bare basics. Yeah, and most people don't do the work.
Kojo Idrissa 36:47
Yeah, I'm about halfway through that episode, actually, in the middle of it. So yeah. And if it's the same thing, a lot of the talks I've given, have been more beginner slash intermediate. And but I do that Because again, my emphasis is on trying to help bring new contributors to the community. And so I tend to focus on on that sort of range. But But I know that as I move into more intermediate talks, there's this idea of needing to define Okay, what what, what do I expect you to know if I'm, if I'm not going to start from the beginning? What do I expect you to know or to be familiar with? And try to outline that upfront such that so that people can can decide, okay, is this a talk I'm gonna get something out of or not? Right?
Will Vincent 37:23
Well, there's that new to me. trap that I've, you know, exactly. It's sort of like, well, I give a talk on something you already know. It's much more common to keep pushing your own boundaries of expertise. So something else called you, you recently won the non threatening board. Could you speak a bit about what that award is?
Kojo Idrissa 37:41
So I guess I can probably be a little more about what it is as opposed to how it were to get sort of surprised. I was surprised myself to find out about it. So the award is in now I feel like I'm sort of doing it a disservice by not being able to read the exact description, but it basically is an award that goes to Someone who has done a great job or has been seemed to do a great job in welcoming new members into the community. And I don't know that I was familiar with the award until I watched it. And then when I found out that I wanted, I read the description, I was like, oh, like, this is like, kind of what I've been trying to do. And so I was, I was upset, I was ecstatic. I was like, Okay, I couldn't be any more happy with having, you know, having won this award, because this is, you know, a lot of what I've been trying to do since I came into the Python community, and then I know a few people who have won the award before me and so it's a good company to be in. And so unfortunately, I was able to I was never able to meet Malcolm I, I didn't become active in the, into the Django community until after he passed away. But all the descriptions that I have heard about him, and I know a few people I know more than a few people who know him and I've met him and so it was, it was very, it was very, very, you know, rewarding to To receive the prize so it's something I'm something I'm fairly proud of, I try to maintain a certain sort of level headedness and in a level of perspective, but you know, it is something I'm proud of. So
Will Vincent 39:11
yeah, well, you should be. So for for listeners who want to get in touch what's or read more, what's the best way for folks to do that?
Kojo Idrissa 39:20
So for me, probably Twitter and one of the best ways my Twitter handle is transition just like the normal word, nothing fancy, just the word transition. That's the only social media that I have. I also have a blog, which is Kojo Idris, calm, it is not terribly frequently updated. I'm working on trying to do a better job of that. And also trying to write a little bit more about the North American grand tour. It's something I've been doing it for now for the past almost two years, but I don't feel like I've done a great job of sort of explaining it to you. I've explained I think like they're like seven people, like who know what norian pt means. And so
Will Vincent 39:54
now it'll be up over 1000. So
Kojo Idrissa 39:56
let's see. There you go. So as you see the hashtag nor MGT on Twitter, That's me being on somewhere on the North American grand tour. But yeah, those are the best places to find me Twitter probably the best place to interact with me. So
Will Vincent 40:08
thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us in the community. It's really important work that you're doing and I hope you get a little more recognition for it.
Kojo Idrissa 40:17
Thank you. Thank you all for having me. And thank you for the podcast podcast Exactly. Like I said, I'm, I've listened to just about all the episodes, I'm about halfway through the Nicholas Taleb area, and so it's been excellent.
Will Vincent 40:26
Awesome. Thanks. Thanks for coming on the show Cody.
Kojo Idrissa 40:28
Thank you.